John Ray shows consultants, coaches, and professional service providers how to stop pricing by the hour and start charging for the outcomes they deliver.
GROWTH PILLAR: Sales & Revenue
WHO THIS IS FOR: Solopreneurs · Coaches · Consultants · Professional service providers ready to charge what their expertise is worth
WHAT THEY'LL GAIN: A clear framework for value-based pricing, practical tools for having better fee conversations with clients, and the mindset shift that makes higher prices feel natural — not pushy.
Most professional service providers have a pricing problem they don't know they have. They're not undercharging because they lack confidence. They're pricing wrong because they're anchoring to the wrong thing, their time, their credentials, their deliverables, instead of the outcomes they create for clients.
John Ray spent thirty years on Wall Street before starting his own advisory practice. When he did, he had no idea how to price his expertise. That journey led him to write The Generosity Mindset — a practical, relationship-first guide to pricing, confidence, and value for professional service providers.
In this Canada Growth Network Power Hour, John walks through six red flags that signal a pricing problem — including hourly rates, same price for all clients, and a hundred percent of clients saying yes. He explains the shift from pricing by time to pricing by outcome, how to structure good-better-best options, and why a value dialogue with clients is the single most powerful tool in your pricing strategy.
He also covers how to collect testimonials that actually convert — built around a simple three-act structure: the hell the client was in, what changed, and the heaven they live in now.
Key topics covered:
Connect with John Ray:
Website · LinkedIn · The Generosity Mindset · Blog · Price and Value Journey Podcast · North Fulton Business Radio · Newsletter
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Next Steps
John (00:22)
something that I want to talk about right off the bat is that I didn't come out of the business womb fully formed when it comes to pricing. I came out of corporate and you know, Bernie and I had a long conversation about this. I didn't know how to price what I did. In fact, I spent thirty years on Wall Street dealing with lots of big numbers and big deals and
whatnot and I had no idea how to price my own work as when I started my business advisory practice. And there's not a lot of places to go get that help. there's a lot of places to go get accounting help, marketing help, financing help, whatnot. A lot of not a lot of places to go get help with how you price your expertise. And that's why I went down a a bunny trail, you might say, ended up
writing a book about it and have g really gotten passionate about this work.
here's the thing. I think a lot of expertise service providers end up talking about their business and pricing their work as if it were a can of dog food. I don't mean that in a negative way because they do great work, but their pricing makes them come across as commodities. The way they talk about their business makes them come across as
replaceable as a commodity. And I don't believe people that have spent the kind of years they've spent in their work, in their business, are commodities. but that's the way they come across when they position themselves and when they price. I have what I call red flags of inadequate pricing, about 10 of them, but here are six that are pretty prevalent.
pricing by the hour. when I see that, that's a sign of inadequate pricing. pricing one price for all clients, same price for all clients. if I see pricing that way, it's pricing that's inadequate. working too hard for too little money. When someone tells me that they're working too hard for too little money, they've probably got a pricing problem. when
A hundred percent of your clients are saying yes, your price is too low. you need to have a certain number of people saying no, to know that your price is where it ought to be. if you're not offering options, so if you're not giving clients different ways to to engage with you, good, better, best, small, medium, large, that's the idea.
when you're talking about you and your expertise and your qualifications and whatnot, and not the problems that you solve for clients, you've probably got a pricing problem. and when I say talking, I mean what what does your website say? You know, what what are your social media posts say? and if they're about you, you may have a pricing problem.
Here's the fundamental disconnect. See, we see our value as expertise service providers in our credentials and our experience, the work that we do, the deliverables. And that's not the way clients see it. Clients are looking at the outcomes, the outcomes of what we do for them. what can I do that I couldn't do before? And how much is that worth to me? What does that mean to me?
And that's an entirely different matter than how we often see our own value because we see the intricacies of our business, the internals of our business, and we're not we don't have our heads into the heads of our clients.
And
The antidote for this for me is what I call the generosity mindset. It's getting out of old mindsets about how we are focused on the mindsets that hold us back, mindsets like imposter syndrome and inadequacy and comparison and focus on the hopes, needs, and wants of clients. And and when we do that, what happens is
It's a shift that changes everything about how we think about our business, how we position it, how we price. Changes our confidence. So instead of billing by the hour, what I do is help folks get to pricing by the outcome. Pricing to value, the value of the of the outcome that you're delivering. that one of the th
Pushbacks I get from a lot of professional services providers is a lot of them are introverts and they don't like the idea of being too salesy. Well, it's not about being salesy. It's about just having conversation. It's about having a best fit conversation. You know, how how is it can I help you? What is your hope, want, need, desire that I can be helpful to you with? whether that benefits me in the short run or not. And when you're
And introverts are actually, I think, better at these conversations than what they think. and I think that kind of mindset creates better clients in your practice and less churn. And again, it's not about what I do, it's about what the work that I do transforms for the client. And that's the way we have to think about how we talk to clients. And clients gravitate toward that.
I'm a fundamental believer that our clients see more value in us than we see ourselves. There's I've never seen a client, let's talk about accountants, tax preparers. I've never seen a client write a review that said, I loved the way they filled out the tax return. I've never seen that. what do they say? They say, you know, my my accountant calls me back.
My accountant talks in ways that I can understand what they're talking about. They actually call me proactively throughout the year. See, those are intangibles. And those intangibles are values that they see in us that we don't think a lot of sometimes. We don't really think about it. it's just what we do in our work. And that's where they see the value. It's not in the tax return. It's how we deliver the service that we deliver.
So how do you get to that? And what I the the way you get to that is through a value conversation, really more appropriately termed, probably a value dialogue, because you're constantly talking to your clients about this. you know, the questions that open doors are questions like, you know, what is driving this need right now? I mean, why do you need this done this particular service done today? why not wait?
Why not wait six months? What would happen if you did? why didn't this get addressed a year ago? I mean, asking these questions get you answers that that help you see where clients see value.
And then I'm a big big believer in why questions. The questions that get beyond just the surface. So what's the end game for all this? You know, why not leave things the way they are? why now? Is the change really urgent? one of the questions I love is what does your spouse think about this? It's amazing when you ask that question.
Wh where you really get to truth when you start asking questions like that. And then why me? I mean, most most providers are scared to ask this question. And I ask the question, why me? Because I'm not the cheapest. Now what have I done right there? I've put a flag in the ground with that client that I'm not the cheapest provider out there. And so if
If that's what their motivation is, we may not be a great fit.
So here's your turn. I'd love if you want to share, feel free to unmute. what pricing challenges are you wrestling with that we can just talk about live?
Well.
Frances (07:38)
My biggest challenge is the coaching profession is set up on a would say an archaic model and it normally charges by the hour. They call it a session, but it's an hour. And the irony is it seems like a really great buck, like three or four hundred dollars a session, but it doesn't cover the cost of finding, getting, servicing, and billing that client, which means that you sound like you're, you know, on Wall Street.
And you're actually working for Walmart.
John (08:08)
I couldn't agree more. I mean, here's the problem with pricing by the hour beyond what you just mentioned is that your expertise, your experience is not measured by the clock. Yet that's what we're talking about, right? when you price by the hour. And so I think the first thing to say is you've got to get to a point where you don't have an hourly rate. And yes.
This is this will take a little bit of training of your clients to say, I don't have an hourly rate. And don't back down on that. And what you do is develop options on the way for clients to engage with you that don't involve an hourly rate. That there are it could be number of sessions, it could be the the amount of interaction they have with you.
It could be the amount of material that you share with them. and and you you gradate your options based on a good, better, best model. And you do it on a flat, flat fee. And that's really the way to get out of that. so there's a lot more to it, obviously, but that's the short stroke of it. But it's really important to get out of hourly pricing, or all you are is a shoe cobbler. And there's only
Only so many shoes that the shoe cobbler can cobble in a day.
Thank you for your question. Anyone else?
Frances (09:25)
So when you're building out a price and you're doing the fair part.
you assess your cost to getting you there. So, you know, it's it's almost like doing operating expenses or operational costs, cost per square foot, and then you have your rent.
is it a bit of a mix between, okay, these are the costs to get there. Here's the hour layer rate I want to see back. Do you then strategize? Because if you're in the cobbler mode, you're looking how do I do one to many? Do you do you realize at a certain point in time you just ramp up and then you go you're gonna go to another iteration and develop a new layer where you're gonna train other people to do the same thing, in which case now it's the when to many, because now you can scale up, not be
The only cobbler. You can be have a whole bunch of people cobbling together. I won't do the shoe analogy much more. So but then how do you match it so that it's a fit? And is it based on your audience? Like, you know if I sell yachts, I'm not selling you something for $2.99. I might move the decimal a lot more over to the right, and then it's not not necessarily the dollar value that I'm selling, it's the package I'm selling.
So how do you shape it when depending on who you're selling to and what the outcome is and or volume?
John (10:34)
Yeah, well, for most service providers, it's really generally a one on one kind of thing, right? And so it's really about having conversations to see where that client sees value and then positioning your offerings based on that value and pricing to that value. So what l let's just say that I'm in the expense reduction business. I help I'm a
maybe a fractional CFO. And I've got, I'm going to help a client save $100,000 in their business. And maybe what the questions I need to be asking are so what are you going to do with that hundred thousand dollars we've we're gonna save? well, I'm gonna reinvest in my business. How? How are you gonna reinvest in your business? Well, I'm gonna buy
Or I'm going hire a new salesperson that I've been wanting to hire for a long time. that's great. So what is that salesperson going to do for you? how much business do you think they're going to bring in? I think probably two million dollars. Wow, that's fantastic. That'll change your business. What is that worth to you? You see, the thing about it is we don't ask these questions. We don't ask these questions. We don't dig deep enough. And what we find is if we dig deep enough, then
Maybe that hundred thousand savings that suddenly that willingness to buy that that client has climbs because of the questions that we ask, the answers that they give us, and the value that both of us see together. So it's not so much, yes, it's important to cover your cost, but the problem is that service providers are anchored.
way too much on that and not enough on the value that clients see. And I have never had a situation where I've worked with a client where value pricing didn't cover their cost and much, much more because the value of your expertise is well above what the value of the inputs that go into that expertise are.
Fran
Frances (12:27)
Thank you. so I have a I I this is a this is a real life case. I'm not gonna change what I did, but I'll put it out there for the benefit of all. Okay. So what what kind of thinking should one incorporate in deciding whether or not to make an offer
that is on a retainer basis versus a lump sum for value. Okay. Now that's the question. Here's the scenario. So I have a practice where I work with people in career transition. And I actually do price based upon the level of position. So if it's a C suite position, it's good bit more.
if it's a professional role is in a different range. overall, that that whole process may be three weeks, it might be two weeks, or it could be six, seven, or eight months.
So what I'm asking you is what should one consider in terms of whether or not to say this ought to be on a month-in-month type retainer arrangement or it is X and then you plan some other way of payment timing or cadence.
John (13:39)
Yeah, that's a great question. So here's the problem with retainer. The problem with retainer is that every month that client is ready to pay your invoice, they're having an internal conversation with themselves about whether they're seeing value. And what's the term of the period that they're looking at? They're not looking at the entire engagement, they're looking at the previous month.
John (14:02)
Right?
John (14:03)
So that's that's a bit of the problem.
what you've got to do what you've got to look at is where in your engagements do you deliver the most value?
What in in terms of the timeline. And so what I would argue is probably based on the way you describe what you do, Francis, I would guess that you deliver a ton of value on the front and a ton of value at the end when they get that job, right? I mean, that's that's the ultimate, right? but you deliver a ton right on the front. But see, someone that's maybe gone
six months, nine months, they haven't gotten that job they wanted because of their work with you, they're gonna see a little they may think differently about that value in the middle of that timeline than what they do at the beginning or the end. So what's important is to be checking in with them constantly about, hey, are am I delivering more value
than what you're paying in fee. And I think that's an important question to ask clients along the way. and if they're not, then you go into the mode you're talking about, which is you continue to work with somebody until they see that value. and that again that requires a constant dialogue. but I think the answer to your question is it is really
How do you charge is really you gotta try to match up the price and the time that the client writes the check with the value that they're getting.
and that speaks to the problem with retainers. retainers work great for bookkeepers, you know, because every month something's happening. they don't work quite as great for all the rest of us.
that's what I can give you in about two minutes of answering that question. So
Frances (15:43)
well, I think it's fantastic because I actually had that conversation with the the person I asked him if it was something else that he wanted to see, because there were other services that could also be provided. But as we know, a job search, there's a lot that goes into the viability of landing a role.
but he was very good. He said he was very satisfied because he gets coached on his leadership skill in his current role as two, because that was something he needed to develop. I want to do better next time when I come up on the situation so that it's not consternation. So this is very valuable. Thank you.
John (16:21)
Thank you. a couple more things So I think it's important to give people choices. People love choices and our clients see different value in us
Not all clients see the same value. Let's just put it like that. so some want the basic version of what we offer, some want the premium and more. They want everything you can give them. it's important to give people choices. and we see this again and again. It we see it at restaurants, we see it at car companies position their models of cars this way. people are used to this. And so I think it's important.
Not to give just one option as a way to work with you, but but three choices.
And then how do you start? it's really important to analyze client reviews and testimonials for the intangibles that you hear. Yeah, I mentioned the the accountant example. but but listen for what clients say about why they do business with you. Ask, why do you do business with me? Why didn't why have you been with me all these years? And they'll tell you things that you don't expect. And those
Those things you don't expect are intangibles where they see value and that will help you in your pricing. develop your capacity for questioning. I I tell clients the extent you're willing to have a value conversation and keep asking questions is the extent to which you're able to price more effectively. I mentioned good, better, best options, and then price increases. that's a really important part of.
effective pricing is having pricing as a strategy and spending as much time on pricing every year as you plan and think about your business as you do on marketing and any other aspect of your business.
this is my book. If you're interested in learning more, it's again called The Generosity Mindset: A Journey to Business Success by Raising Your Confidence, Value, and Prices. And again, I think confidence is the a major piece of this. It's getting over the mindsets that hold us back.
testimonial to me has basically three parts.
The hell they were in. The hell they were in when they found I'm gonna say Bernie. What Bernie did and and the heaven they live in now because of what Bernie did. There's three it's a three-act play. And so what I advise people to do, and a lot of people are reluctant to do this, is ask first of all, ask, and then
Most people, most clients have a blank page syndrome when it comes to writing reviews or writing testimonials. They don't know what to say. And then that's one the reason they never get it done. And so what my advice is to offer to write it for them and that they can edit it and then post it themselves. And most clients will say yes to that. And the ones that don't say yes to that, they're gonna probably write it.
Or they just don't intend to do one. But the clients that you can you can ask to to do that, and if they say yes, then you can write it with that in mind, with that that three act play. Hell, what the what the work did, and then heaven. And you write it that way, and then it addresses the deficiencies that we all see in
Not just no reviews, but reviews that really don't say anything other than that John is a great guy. Well, that doesn't say anything. that's not compelling enough for people to want to hire me. These these reviews need to be a what's in it for me kind of thing for the client.