Earl Hoeg of People First reveals the four-colour framework helping Canadian teams cut friction, communicate better, and actually perform.
GROWTH PILLAR: Leadership & Ops
WHO THIS IS FOR: Founders / Team leads / Managers scaling past five people / Corporate escapees building their own teams
WHAT THEY'LL GAIN: A practical framework for understanding how people communicate, why friction happens, and what one half-day workshop can do for a team that keeps bumping into itself.
Most teams don't fail because of bad hires. They fail because good people don't have a shared language for how they think, communicate, and get things done.
Earl Hoeg is the founder of People First, a Canadian coast-to-coast collective of people development professionals. With 33 years in the federal public service — including 27 years leading teams and 16 years running virtual and distributed operations — Earl has seen firsthand what connection does for a team, and what its absence costs.
In this episode, Earl introduces the Insights Discovery System, a four-colour framework built around fiery red, sunshine yellow, earth green, and cool blue. These aren't personality boxes. They're a shared language — one that helps teams move from confusion and friction to awareness, alignment, and results.
Earl and Bernie dig into:
Earl is a TEDx speaker whose talk How to Thrive in the New World of Work unpacks why connection is the foundation of trust, innovation, and results. His upcoming book — Mind Your P's and Q's — maps the four Insights colour energies onto how we build our lives and businesses.
Connect with Earl:
peoplefirst.ca · LinkedIn · Instagram · YouTube
Special offer for K4B listeners:
Decision makers interested in experiencing the Insights Discovery System may be eligible for a complimentary profile or a significant listener discount. Connect with Earl on LinkedIn and mention this podcast to learn more.
— PARTNERS ON THIS EPISODE —
@Hive — Real-world business networking, in person and online. Starter membership $99 CAD/year.
Gentry Learning — Real estate education that builds real wealth, with Fred Crouch and the Property Wizard Podcast team.
Profit10™ — Find out what's really holding your business back. Take the free Profit Snapshot — ten questions, no cost, real clarity.
Next Steps
Bernie (00:21)
Question to the audience. Why does your team keep dropping the ball even though everyone is on it? see, that's my first edit. Question to the audience. Why does your team keep dropping the ball even though everyone on it is talented? If you've ever hired
The right people built a solid plan and still watched things fall apart in the execution. Today's episode is for you. Our guest is going to show us why the problem almost never lives in the talent, it lives in the gap between people. How they communicate, how they trust each other, and whether or not they are playing all by the same unwritten
our guest today is Earl Hoeg from People First.
He brings over three decades of real world leadership to the table. He's a founder of People First, a Canadian-owned coast to coast collective of people development professionals, helping business managers build environments where individuals and teams can actually show up as their best selves. With three to three years in the federal public service, including twenty-seven years leading teams and sixteen years running virtual and distributed operations,
Earl has seen firsthand what happens when connection is strong and what gets left on the table when it isn't. He's a TEDx speaker whose talk How to Thrive in the New World of Work unpacks why connection at work is the foundation of trust, innovation, and results.
Today, Earl and People First Team partner with organizations across Canada using Insights Discovery System, moving companies beyond one time workshops and towards lasting internal leadership capability. Their mission is straightforward. Less friction, better collaboration, stronger results. You can find Earl at PeopleFirst.ca or connect with him on LinkedIn. Earl.
Absolute pleasure having you and grate to have a chat with you again. Do you have a favorite quote or saying, sir?
Earl (02:04)
I sure do, Bernie. Great to great to be here. So my my quote is one that a mentor of mine shared with me when I was a frontline supervisor. And it was people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. That for me, you know, shaped my leadership philosophy and started me on a really a 35-year journey of, you know, trying to understand leadership and practicing leadership and
Learning how to truly put people first.
Bernie (02:34)
Thirty-three years in federal service. Wow. That that's congratulations. You know, that's a good tenure, I I gotta admit. When did you realize that people development wasn't just a a straightforward HR function?
Earl (02:47)
Well, you know, it kind of goes back to that that quote that I shared at the opening, Bernie. It was it was that mentor of mine. I guess I I was never afraid to ask for help. And I was a frontline supervisor early on in my career. I took a I was like most managers, I think. I became kind of an accidental manager. I wasn't looking for, you know, performance agreements and and all these extra responsibilities. For me, I was actually looking for management experience to become
Yeah, to get my MBA, but I really didn't know what I was getting myself into. And that mentor kind of took me under his wing and gave me the guidance with that, that quote and so many others that just reminded me that, you know, if you do put your people first, the results will follow. And so while I wanted to, my instinct was to be the biggest and, you know, push to to do more, the way that we get there is really through our people.
Bernie (03:43)
to be in a business for thirty to three years, any business is a really a good testament. But now you've kind of switched gears and you created a company called People First. What made you drift from one to the other? what was the you know what? Today I'm gonna be doing this. I'm gonna put on a different cape.
Earl (03:58)
So so first Bernie, are you saying I'm old? Is that what is that what I'm hearing? You know, you're saying I'm old? Is that what you're saying?
Bernie (04:02)
No no no seasoned, you're seasoned.
Earl (04:07)
Absolutely. You know, Bernie, I think I was I was an entrepreneur trapped in a public servant's body for 33 years. I I really do think that I when I was eight years old, I was taking my little red wagon with pop and chips and dragging it down a rural highway in Nova Scotia.
you know, to sell at a cotton cattle auction because I saw there was an opportunity. And so for me, this is really not just an act two. This is really my opportunity to follow a passion. It's an opportunity for me to do what I loved about all my roles in government, and that was helping other managers, my direct reports in many cases, you know, put their people first. So
yeah, it hasn't been a hasn't been a real struggle at all. It's been a a real pleasure and a passion.
Bernie (04:52)
You know what? I totally get it. been there, done that, got the t shirt, not not in the HR sector, but you know, entrepreneur at heart inside a healthcare institution. Those are hard things to put together sometimes. You've you've led people and as when someone experiences scaling when all of a sudden things get larger, what's the difference between running five people versus a hundred and fifty five people?
Earl (05:14)
I mean, I think the first thing is all of a sudden you are now no longer able to just role model what you what you are expecting to happen. You can't be there for everyone. The moment you start to grow and and you have direct reports that are now responsible for managing other members of the team, you really need to start thinking about your systems and your processes and having
an infrastructure in place that allows your your values and your vision to cascade down through the organization.
Bernie (05:49)
So when you're as you describe that, I just was having a another chat with another person and it's a a fractional service. So are you offering a fractional service for someone that goes, my gosh, my team's getting too big and you know the wheels on the bus are kind of wobbly, but they're they're not off yet. And is that what is that what's coming in from people first?
Earl (06:12)
Really, so I started my entrepreneurial journey at 55. Okay. I don't want to be all things to all people. I am not really looking to solve all of an organization's problems. I have partnered with an amazing collective of executive coaches and insights discovery practitioners across the country. And we are we are looking to support organizations with primarily that first.
Piece of the workplace ecosystem, which is increasing awareness, which drives increased connection at work. That's really kind of our niche. I'm, you know, connection, connection at work and increasing awareness. We, some of the members of my team, I I my focus is on that insights discovery system. And so we say that we take our clients from a journey from, you know, awareness through alignment to activation.
And the awareness phase is kind of my piece. That's where we, you know, primarily focus. And if a client needs something else, I want to be able to say, I don't do that, but I know someone who does. And so the first level of that someone who does is our people first peeps. Those are all of our collaborators, the 20 amazing, you know, bilingual French, English, male, female, you know, coast to coast facilitators and executive coaches.
And then I have another whole partnership of other trusted partners who who do a number of things. So a long answer to your question, I think, Bernie.
Bernie (07:39)
it's a good one. I like that. So being virtual, I guess that's how you can support across Canada without it being a a heavy cost to deliver service then.
Earl (07:48)
Yeah, we are we are absolutely coast to coast. I had been managing, you know, virtual teams for for 16 years prior to this, long before, you know, Zoom and other technologies made it a little bit easier to increase connection. but yeah, we are we are coast to coast and looking to be Canada's most impactful insights discovery distributor.
Bernie (08:10)
I like that. Do you feel that 'cause there's a lot of push and I I don't want to touch on a a hot button topic because I know that's it's going on at the federal level and even down to the municipal level here in Ottawa. back to work versus Zoom. I guess the question I ask is is the impact still a strong doing it virtually for what you have to deliver as opposed to being it has to be in person?
Earl (08:33)
So what I the way I think I'd answer that, Bernie, is that what I learned from managing virtual teams for 16 years is that, you know, it's it's about the work. It's not about like work is work is what we do, it's not where we do it. And so I think what's you know, I don't want to tread into that controversy either in terms of the return office, but I tell you, you know, what I think a lot of people are getting wrong in that discussion is that, you know.
It's not about it's not about proximity. It still is about connection. It's about, you know, we are it the whole return to office debate ignores the fact that we are a distributed team. We are all distributed teams. So whether we're in the same office, we are distributed across floors or across buildings or across multiple cities. And so thinking that
putting people together in the same office without equipping them with the right tools to increase connection and communication and collaboration is nonsensical to say the least. I'll be, I'll be kind, I'll be PG on your on your podcast here.
Bernie (09:37)
Well no, that's okay. That's okay, you know. It just it just struck me as as as as we're kind of going through this conversation. on. and rightly so. you know, I've past institution I was at with had three campuses and you know over ten thousand staff. good luck trying to put everybody in the same room at the same time. You did a TEDx talk, how to thrive in the new world of work. So talk to me about what thriving means.
What is it what does that definition of thriving look like?
Earl (10:04)
So the the idea for my my TEDx talk actually started from this dilemma that I was having with respect to the return to office mandate. So it kind of started with this idea that I I knew that what was important in managing a team was having the best person on my team, regardless of where they sat. But I also knew that there was magic in us coming together and being in person.
And so it started with you know me not wanting to take a strong position against the return to office mandate, but knowing that it wasn't being done in the right way. And so I started digging into the research. I started looking at what is what is it that is really going on? And what I came up with is the research shows that our the biggest indicator.
Of our happiness, of our well being in life, is the strength and the richness of our social connections. And so, given how much time we spend at work, like a third of our lives we spend at work, if we can increase the quality of our connections there, like how much happier we're going to be in life and at work, right? So that's where that's where it's it stemmed from, Brittany.
Bernie (11:19)
So shared way of understanding and working together. Do people not just naturally gravitate towards that if they're birds of a feather? Or is that is that something we have that has to be kind of shaped? Is it like, you know, if you put five kid five kindergarten kids in one room, all right? Are you expecting the same result? Not that, you know, not that employees are kindergarten kids, but you if if you're if if you're stripping away certain things that
That are drivers, you know, will we naturally f form in a a cohesive group?
Earl (11:50)
So I mean I'll answer that by saying, you know, common sense is not common practice, Bernie. Like we know that, right? Like we wouldn't, you know, we all know that if we if we eat better and we exercise more and we get better sleep, that we're going to be healthier, but we don't always do it. And so I think that the idea of having, you know, some some structure and and coaching and support along the way to remind us of of what is important to get
off of autopilot and to nudge us towards towards action is is pretty important. And so that's really the system that we offer our clients is really the start of that journey of you know sparking that awareness of how we show up when we're not trying to show up. And then moving very quickly to appreciating and valuing that others are different from us. And that's a that's a pretty darn good thing. And then how do we how do we
Use that to our advantage to really drive results.
Bernie (12:50)
So from a management perspective, then you have a crew of people you're working with, whether it's five or or larger, and and you have to you're looking for outcomes. So are the outcomes the the priority or is it the relationship and then the outcomes? Because if I'm doing sales, for example, it seemed it seems as cold or transactional of high high.
Buy my chocolate bar as opposed to hi Bernie. you have a fundraiser. Buy my chocolate bar. You know, the two different two different approaches. What what's best? What's best formula for for management or for a supervisor, especially up and coming.
Earl (13:27)
So I think that there's a huge focus on on results. I think it's, you know, society, you know, drives that. It's about, you know, keeping up with the Joneses in our personal lives or or in in the organization we're setting, you know, KPIs and measures. But I think what I learned early on is that it's yes, relationships are important, but how we deliver those results those results matter, right? So it's not.
It's not just about the results, it's about it's about the relationships. So I used to describe my leadership philosophy as as being one of of, you know, relationships and results. I used to say R and R, you know, no, not rest and relaxation, but you know, relationships and results. And I always wanted to be the biggest and you know, push the envelope and do something no one else had done.
But I learned early on in my career that that the way that we're gonna do that is by investing in our people and making sure that that they and those relationships, and not just the people that report to us, but the relationships with our colleagues and other other departments as well on how we deliver those results.
Bernie (14:32)
Well walk me through the Insights Discovery System. That sounds it sounds fascinating. Almost like you're opening up a little box, not necessarily Pandora's box, unless it depends what's happening behind the scenes, but you know, you're opening up a box of, you know, Turkish delights, so to speak. What what's that all about?
Earl (14:49)
So, so Bernie, some of your listeners may have heard of systems like Myers, Briggs, or Disk. And so often I'm asked are, you know, is insights like those other systems? And my answer to that, if I if I'm being kind, is you know, those other systems are like seeing life in black and white. And insights is like seeing life in high definition color. It's a simple system, but it is in terms of it's for.
Four color energies is how we describe it. But those four colors are really more of a framework for, you know, seeing business problems, for, you know, looking at like team effectiveness or leadership effectiveness and personal effectiveness. So it's, you know, it's fiery red, which is results driven, right? It's sunshine yellow is about ideas and innovation. It's earth green, which is about relationships and people.
And it's cool blue, which is about details and systems and processes. And so it's it's meant to give people an understanding of their preferences, not their competencies, but how do they show up when they're not trying to show up? And by looking at the values and the strengths from all those four perspectives, we can see that.
Wow, it's pretty good that you know somebody else on the team, you know, has those strengths that that I don't necessarily have. So I, as a leader in the federal public service party, I was fortunate. I was given supervisory training early on. When I was 27 years old, frontline supervisor, I went to a supervisory training course. When I became a middle manager, I was given middle management training. When I became an executive, we had, you know, the introduction to the
You know, to to the executive cadre. And I took leadership training and I had an opportunity to see all the systems really that are out there that are intended for increasing team effectiveness to get teams through that storming, norming to performing phase more quickly. And for me, the insights discovery system is the perfect blend of, you know, it's science, but it's simple. People get it and it sticks.
so that it's it's sustainable, it endures. So yeah, that's that's why I'm you know pretty pretty much all in on insight system for for building people first.
Bernie (17:04)
So is that something someone does the analysis of on themselves and the team? And is there is there a percentage where, you know, I'm fifty percent red, fifty percent blue, and the green and yellow are gone? Or or is it is it a like I I guess I got about four or five different questions in here and then I'm gonna kind of pop in here. a how
How much of a breakup or break out are we of all the four different colors that you showed us? Is it static? Like once you're there, that's it. And is is the job itself color coded? And then the people in the job that you're working with. So I I've just I've just thrown a large deck of cards on on your on your table. I'll let you kind of walk me through this or walk us through that.
Earl (17:48)
Yeah. So start off by saying we all have access to all four of the color energies, right? And there's no good or bad, right or wrong in the system. It's just about, you know, what comes most easily to us. Like how do we show up when we're not trying to show up? And so the system that that people would go through and
I'll put the put the offer out there now too, Bernie. I mean, we have on our people first website, we have a free personality quiz that people can go and they can get this this analysis so they can go on and just just complete that. And I'll give them very quickly that that feedback on, you know, which colors do they lead with. And it is pretty much as as you said, we give percentages. And so even
You know, someone like me who has very little access, very it's very challenging for me to access my cool blue. I still have a small percentage of it. for me, I lead with sunshine yellow and fiery red. They're both extroverted energies. It's innovation and driving for results. That's my, you know, but I my company is people first and I I put people first. You know, earth green is pretty high up, but it's it's not.
As easily accessible to me as those other two. So, you know, I I sometimes need to remember when I'm writing emails, yeah, people want to, you know, I need to say, you know, how how was your day? I need to remember to put that in. And so what it does is it gives gives us first an understanding of ourselves. Then what we do with teams, we most often, you know, deploy this as a system with a team. So we we then give a team wheel. So everybody
gets to share where they are in terms of the number of the color energies they have easy access to and the order of those. So we we produce this team wheel to kind of show the distribution. So you can look at it in terms of what are the strengths and the weaknesses. What might this mean for our team if we don't put in some little extra effort and and dial up those areas where we're weak on, what are some things that we might we might overlook? So we absolutely do that with with the system as well.
And I'm trying to re I did wasn't taking notes on all the other
Bernie (19:59)
I'm sorry. So the the kind of the question is like a you know how much are we of the colors? And I get that part. Is it is it static? Like you know, age 25 versus age 55, or as we age and we get more ornery, do we get more more red? you know, and then is the job color coded too, right? Because you know, certain jobs require
If I'm if I'm thinking an analytical, which I believe is the blue, then you know, that might be that sounds like accounting. you know, just I could be off the mark, you know, like the the bit of a bit of red in there too, but you know.
Earl (20:34)
So so I think so to answer your question, first question in terms of does, you know, do our personalities change over time? And the answer is yes. Okay. We're not static. This this idea that some systems say, like our personality is fixed at birth and that's it. You are who you are. And, you know, with our system, we have we have one of the highest reliability and repa repeatability, you know, reports from all of the the British and the American
psychology is set, you know, associations that that measure these things. But it does change over time, but but it's usually as a result of if there's a major change, it's as a result of a major life change. So you know we've had a career change, a pivot, we the birth of a child, you know, the loss of a loved one, our priorities change. We start to focus on on different things. In terms of the job,
There are certain jobs that are easier for us to do if our color energies align with them. But our system is preference based. It's not competency-based. So I'll share an example. So I was running a session for a larger, a large consumer products company in in the US. And their head of research and development, which she was an engineer, she had like a strong background. She is super skilled.
In cool blue detail analytical focus. But her personality profile, when we did the grand reveal with the C-suite, because the CEO brought me in as they were, he was putting his team together and and said like he wanted them to start working, you know, understand each other. When they saw her profile, they were shocked because she was very much like me, very little cool blue, right? So her preference for cool blue was low.
But her competency and ability to do it was there. So I think that that's the difference. Like we look at every you pick any profession, and you can, you'll, you'll find a distribution of people who lead with each of the color energies in that job, even though the job may say, gee, I would think that someone with a profile like this would, you know, would be the best fit. So
We do not recommend our system for selection. It's not meant to be used as a selection tool. There are systems out there that that are they that are that purport to do that. but if they're preference-based, like I don't I, you know, I don't I don't I don't recommend it. Our system is meant really for team effectiveness, it's meant for teams that want to
you know, work more effectively together, get the friction and the misunderstanding out of the out of the system early on, or later on if they've realizing, hey, wait a minute, we've got a few, you know, a bit of conflict and a few dust ups here.
Bernie (23:18)
friction. What what does that look like? You know, Monday morning you roll in, you know, if you're in charge of a crew, people going, my gosh, here we go again. Right, you know, and if you're running into that, what is the typical cause and what's the typical remedy?
Earl (23:33)
So, I mean, I think an example of friction, I'll use I'll use another example with a with a client that I was meeting with where she was the she was the head of HR and she had been in this organization for six months at this point in time. And she and the sales director had been butting heads for like six months. And when I did her insights profile with her.
She was just like so relieved. Like she was just like, this explains it. She said, I now get it. Like I lead with earth green, and she leads with fiery red. And in the system, they're psychological opposites. So, you know, sometimes that's where the most miscommunication happens is with our psychological opposites. And so what that friction looks like is wasted time and wasted energy.
What it also looks like for like for a CEO is it's it's everything getting escalated to the CEO to try and solve the the problems of of the team. And so yeah, I think that that's it's that's that's the friction that I'm talking about. It's just the simple misunderstandings that exist because we don't have an objective language.
to describe our differences in a in a positive way.
Bernie (24:54)
Do you're set up across the country? How do you ensure that you're in in harmony with your crew? I mean I've I've I've been in I've been in a like for example, I've been in a job where for me, I the blue is not strong. but I I was told and it and then it didn't work out well, I I paired with another person who had the blue, right? the goals were the same. We were, you know, looking for different things.
We self understood, you know, the balance. You know, there's certain things that where I would have a blind spot and that person would take care of the blind spot and and conversely the other way around. How do you manage to you know if a get that set across the country? Because, you know, it's not like you can turn over to your partner at the desk going, Yo, what are up to? Right? Yeah.
Earl (25:45)
I mean, I think it, I think it starts, Bernie, with onboarding the right people. so I started out on this this journey wanting to build something that has a meaningful impact. you know, I I started out saying, you know, I want to, I wanna impact, you know, I want to make a difference in the world, you know, one leader, you know, one team, one organization at a time. And if I really want to do that, I I've taken great care in in looking at
Who I want to work with. And the beautiful thing, as a lot of your listeners and founders will know, is that when you are your own boss, you you have that opportunity. You get to choose who it is that you surround yourself with. So so I've taken great efforts to recruit an amazing group of professionals who
Are maybe a little bit like me. There's, you know, some of them have, you know, a little bit more gray visible than than others. But we we really have, you know, gotten to that point in our lives where we don't need to be important, but we want to do something important. We still want to make, we want to make a difference. So I think that's hire hire the right people and then trust them to do their jobs. That's
That's a that's a big part of of how you manage and lead any team, whether they're in person or they're distributed, you know, around the globe.
Bernie (27:07)
mentioned when we're talking about your or when we're talking about your backstory, it's not about a one and done session, like you know, and I I've I've having been in corporate had those experiences where, you know, ta-da, and then you know, everybody walks away. Few new insights depending on what the where we are in the color wheel, going yeah, that figures, et cetera, and that's where it stops. Your platform, your whole approach is more
than just the one moment. Is like is this like a a monthly thing? Is this a quarterly thing, semi annual? What do you do as a follow-up? Like once you've made made contact with somebody saying, Hi, here's here's your color spectrum. Here's your cruise color spectrum. How often do you go back in to ensure that the you know the it everything's aimed true?
Earl (27:55)
So I think the first part of the answer to that question is starting out with a system that that people can understand and can apply and and that it's easy to remember. When I look at some of those those other systems that are focused on on letters and acronyms or you know archetypes, and you're trying to figure it out, it just gets too too complex. I think with, you know, when I look at
the insights discovery system, it is it is simple and it is a it's a program, not a not a profile. So it applies to team effectiveness. So it becomes like a a language that you can carry across the organization. So it's you know yes it's it's results, but it's also innovation. It's also you know relationships and it's about processes. And so
You give me any business problem and I can paint it in the four insights color energies. I think my my newsletter when I finally get to launching that might just be, you know, see life in color. And you give me a business problem, I can, I can paint it in those, those four color energies. So I think it starts there, like having a system that is that is memorable, that is sticky. and then I think the second part of the answer to your question is like for us at people first, we've set a goal.
I want us to be the most impactful insights discovery distributor in Canada. And so I realize that we want to support our clients in the flow of work. We want to be there to be a trusted advisor along the journey. So we are adding, you know, so much value with a workshop.
That clients take with us. We're giving access to digital resources. We've created our people first community where we have some free e-learning modules that self-directed learners can go in and they can continue their journey. We're looking at implementing booster shots of awareness. So you buy a workshop with us in six months or 12 months from now, call us back in and we'll help you implement a leader in that organization will help you.
implement an activity to keep it alive, to translate it to something that you're dealing with. So we're partnering with an AI company. This is one I'm really excited about, Bernie. There's an AI assessment company that will allow us to take an organization's insights discovery profiles and other assessments that may they may have used, some of those competitors like Myers Brakes or Disk, and integrate it in the flow of work.
So that you're having a meeting with five people tomorrow. It show it knows it's synced with your calendar. It knows based on what those individuals have agreed to share with the system, the communication do's and don'ts of that of those those members. So you can get real-time coaching when you need it. That's that's how we're going to be Canada's most impactful insights discovery distributor by the end of this year. That's my goal. So I've got to.
Goals have to be measurable and time bound. I I sometimes joke that you know, smart goals are stupid, empty goals are smart. and by empty I mean and T. They just need to be measurable and time bound. So for me, my goal is it is measurable and time bound. We've got some qualitative measures in there too, but yeah.
Bernie (31:19)
Errors in communications. W what do you mean by errors in communications? Is it using the wrong language? Is it using the and I say language as in the spoken or written language? is it too short, too fast? Is it too flowery? What what fouls up the language?
Earl (31:35)
when someone when someone tells me that they're having communication challenges on on their team and I, you know, start to dig into that a a little bit more, what's likely going on is that they are not understanding or or or appreciating that we are all that we're all different, that that the the they're overlooking the
foundation of of how of how we communicate and the idea that we all have different perceptions. Like our perceptions of how we see the world are very different, but they're our reality. But perceptions can change with an increase in awareness. And so it really is about like starting back with those the the foundational pieces of look, we can both look at the exact same thing.
And depending on where we're standing, see it very differently. And we can both be right. And so it's really about understanding that we start there, understanding how we think that every time something happens to us, we go through these three steps from thinking, feeling to acting, and understanding the mechanics of that. That most of the time we're on autopilot, and we need to kind of interrupt that autopilot and show up the way.
that the relationship and the situation requires of us.
Bernie (32:55)
So if someone's a startup company, let's say they're a SaaS company, and they're, you know, all of a sudden they've they've hit the unicorn and the unicorn starts growing, like all of a sudden exponentially. And they're so they're going from the five man squad or five person squad to the hundred and fifty person squad and and and then some. And not necessarily even people you're hired, the people you have contracts with, because that it would also encompass that space too, right? Yeah. Right.
Is there how much time should they allow for? Like, okay, if I'm starting a business, I gotta I I've got a the better mousetrap on the go. Do I sit back? Okay, I I gotta map out a budget, I gotta map out my lawyer, I gotta map out my accountant, I gotta map out, you know, these different components. When it comes to the HR piece to ensure there's good continuity, and I'm and could probably imagine then you also want to look at their client base to some extent.
you know, what color profile the the client base is. How long does that take to go cold start to hot and ready?
Earl (33:52)
So I think what a lot of a lot of leaders, a lot of founders, you know, get wrong about thinking about introducing a system like this to improve communication is that they they look at it as a as a separate line item. They say, you know, this is a, I don't have the budget for for this. What I what I what I
I used to manage corporate real estate and you know I used to brag that I got to manage the second largest budget in my department, but it paled in comparison. Like I was managing a $250 million rent and project budget at one time, but I was responsible for office accommodations for you know 40,000 employees across across Canada. And the salaries of those 40,000 employees, you know, added up to over three billion.
Dollars, like with a B billion. And so I think what a lot of leaders overlook and they they sweat, well, you know, how much money am I, you know, spending on my tech stack, or how much am I paying, you know, for for this service provider? Your biggest line item in any organization is the salaries of the people that you're that you're paying. And if you are, you know, those people are spinning their wheels because of.
Miscommunication, misunderstanding. They are the lack of trust because now you know I'm avoiding, you know, having this conversation with Bernie because I don't know. Like last time he was a little blunt with me, and now I don't know really how to approach him. Like all of that wasted time and effort. Like if if leaders could really truly measure that, like this would be this would be a no-brainer to make an investment like this. So
I don't know if I if I really answered your your question, Bernie. I think I might have gone down a different different
Bernie (35:41)
Well no y no it it's it's it's a good answer but so how long does it take to get there though? To get to that
Earl (35:48)
I mean you have to start. Yeah. So I mean in terms of so it's it's fast, right? Like I mean we can we we run like an introductory workshop is a half day investment, right? If you can do if you can give us a full day, it's much better. The difference between a half day and a full day is how much time you you know, you have the opportunity to kind of work with the profiles, understand, you know, the system and the language, and then it's really about the you know, the maintenance and keeping, you know, keeping it alive. But
to get started, it's it's like a no-brainer. You do a 30-minute, you know, everybody completes a 30-minute evaluator online. They get I get access to their to the report almost immediately. We don't share it out immediately. We want to make sure that it's provided in the context of a debrief and a and a feedback. but if any of your listeners out there are are interested, there's an opportunity. I'm looking at running a founder's workshop.
Where I'm gonna bring founders and co-founders together, because I have this suspicion that you know the there's some visionaries and some integrators to use the EOS language out there that maybe are psychological opposites and might benefit from from having an understanding and appreciation or you know, better ways to to to work with their with their colleagues. and I can give some pretty steep discounts for for that. If if you're a decision maker in an organization.
that you want to test this out, again, I can get some pretty some pretty good discounts to get the leader started. So if your listeners are I'm like I'm the only Earl Hoeg on on LinkedIn. so reach out. Our company, our website is you know peoplefirst dot ca, as you said in your intro. So we're pretty easy to find, Bernie.
Bernie (37:24)
Wow, that yeah, that's awesome, Earl. are you just focused on Canada or are you continental North America?
Earl (37:31)
So as I mentioned, I'm building my business with partners in mind. And so my geography is Canada. I'm very proud that we are, you know, a Canadian-owned and coast-to-coast company, but we have partnerships across the across the globe in terms of if there's interest an organization has.
has teams in other locations and they want support for an in-person workshop for one of their teams really anywhere in the world. you know, I may not do that, but I know someone who does. And so so please you know, reach out.
Bernie (38:08)
Perfect. And so you're a TEDx speaker. Do you have any books or blogs or podcasts out there?
Earl (38:15)
so lots of podcasts. I look at this as an opportunity to really get get the word out there. The TEDx talk has just launched. I I'm thinking about my my first book Bernie and I think it'll be Mind Your P's and Q's, your operating system for your life and your business.
And a surprise, surprise to your listeners, it's going to be painted in the four insights color energies. So the four the four P's are producing, promoting, partnering, and processing. and the Qs are quality, quantity, questioning, and questing, all painted in those four insights, color energies. But it's about how how I'm building the business as well and and those areas. So
No book no book yet, but if there's any publishers out there that like that idea, hey, reach out and we'll we'll work on that.
Bernie (39:04)
That's perfect. Do you have a particular vertical that you're looking for for in in the business spectrum? Are you looking for just startups? Are you looking for tech, industrial manufacturing, or institutional?
Earl (39:17)
So for for me, really what I want to do is I wanna find organizations that want to embed this language as a shared system. So I purposely don't use the title consultant in my title. I'm a people development professional. I don't want to borrow your watch to tell you the time, or to use another metaphor.
I don't want to, fish for you. I want to teach you how to fish. And so for me, most organizations that are over a hundred, you start to realize that there's some different that interdepartmental, communication starts to become visible. You're large enough to realize, okay, wait a second, we need a we need a system here across departments. my real target is
for me at People First is kind of 200 to 2000 in size, a number of employees. But I'm I'm kind of ambivalent on on the industry. but I again I have others that are working with me that are very interested in a five person you know startup. They are very focused on wanting to coach a founder and take them on that journey to
start with their or solopreneurs that are really just looking to understand themselves. So I have I have a number of again amazing people that that love that that coaching piece and and can support. we're pretty, you know, I say I don't want to be all things to all people. I'm not, but I know others who who do.
Bernie (40:45)
Insight discovery workshops?
Earl (40:46)
if anyone is interested, if they're a decision maker and they're interested in experiencing the power of the insights discovery system, please please reach out and they may be yeah, they may be eligible for a complete complimentary profile or a steeply discounted one, depending upon you know the size of the organization.
Bernie (41:04)
Earl, I want to say thank you so much and to you the Knack 4 Business listeners for your time today. This has been a really really good conversation. there's four colors out there, you can find out your color spectrum and understand yourself and your team better. This is all about to avoiding miscommunications and causing friction at work and lost productivity, lost gain.
Yeah, so it's to get you all on the same page at the same time, understanding yourself and the folks around you. Always got a workshop out there. Super easy to reach out to him. and if you can figure it out by now, he's he's a pretty easy going gentleman. And to reach our website is knack4business.com. And we have a web indexer chat bot that'll help you search out other previous podcasts.