AI strategist Len Ward breaks down why SEO is fading, what replaces it, and how SMB owners can build AI workflows that actually drive growth.
GROWTH PILLAR: AI & Automation
WHO THIS IS FOR: SMB owners / Solopreneurs / Corporate escapees / Leaders building systems
WHAT THEY'LL GAIN: A clear-eyed map of where AI is taking business — SEO, lead gen, workflows, and the agent-to-agent future — plus practical steps to start building now.
Most business owners know AI is changing things. Very few know what to actually do about it.
Len Ward does. As Managing Partner and Head of AI at Commexis, Len has spent over two decades watching technology waves — from a Morgan Stanley trading desk during the dot-com boom to building custom AI systems for businesses today. He sees the same pattern repeating. And he's here to help you get ahead of it.
In this conversation, Len breaks down why SEO is heading toward irrelevance and what the shift from "search and retrieve" to "solve my problem" actually means for your business. He explains how large language models digest content, why your website is becoming a data repository rather than a front door, and how custom GPTs and in-platform apps are the next battleground for visibility and lead generation.
Len also tackles the workflow side. He walks through how to identify the real bottlenecks in your business, why Gen X workers are one of the most underutilized assets in the AI transition, and what it means to become an AI pilot — someone who can sit in the cockpit of any AI tool and fly it — rather than betting everything on one platform.
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NEXT STEPS
Bernie (00:22)
question to the listener. How do you stop wasting time and money on AI hype and actually turn it into real revenue for your business? That's the core problem our guest will tackle in this episode. If you're a founder, CEO, or growth focused leader, feeling the pressure to do something with AI, but unsure where to start, this conversation is for you. Our guest will break down what most leaders get wrong about AI and how to move the from random tools to engineered AI workflows.
And how to turn automation, chatbots, and AI driven marketing into measurable growth. Our guest today is Len Ward from Commexis
He's the he's the managing partner of Comexis, an AI consulting and product development firm. and his path to leading edge AI didn't start in tech. It started on Wall Street. A former VP on the institutional equity trading desk at Morgan Stanley and Credit Suisse during the height of the dot com boom.
Len had a front row seat to how fast technology can disrupt entire businesses and industries. That early sparked a pivot from high stakes finance into entrepreneurship, where he launched his own e commerce business and taught himself SEO, paid media, digital growth from the ground up. He went on to build and scale a successful marketing agency, eventually evolving it into a full service growth firm. Today, through Comexis, Len
Helps companies move beyond traditional marketing and into the AI native systems, developing intelligent chatbots, AI-driven marketing engines, and automated workflows that increase efficiency, sharpen customer engagement. With a rare mix of financial discipline, entrepreneurial grit, and hands-on AI experience and expertise, then brings practical forward thinking insight to business leaders who want to understand not just the hyper on AI, but how to actually use it and drive smarter growth.
Len, it's an absolute pleasure to have you here today. Thank you so much for joining us. Do you have a favorite quote or sh saying you want to share with us?
Len (02:14)
Quoter saying, indecision will kill you. Still one of my favorite lines ever heard in my life. Indecision will kill you. And I live by that every day. Make a decision to move forward.
Bernie (02:22)
You sound like my driver's ed teacher when I was sixteen. Yeah, you decide to do it, do it.
Len (02:28)
The best piece of bite you ever heard.
Bernie (02:31)
So what was it like being on Wall Street during the dot com boom era?
Len (02:36)
It it was it was eye opening. I always tell people I kinda wish I had another crack at it, like at this age now, because I was a kid. but you know, the thing I remember I can't even like the the the the small like you know, criticisms you get, you know, 'cause you're a young kid on Wall Street, all that information and all of those, you know, pieces of advice and meetings you sat in, it didn't really resonate to years later.
and it's funny how I still carry a lot of those lessons from people that I worked under and worked with to this day, little things. And so when you're younger in your 20s and so forth, you may think what somebody's telling you is dumb or doesn't make any sense, but 20 years later, the light goes on. And you know, you're like, wait a minute, I remember somebody told me that a long time ago, and this is happening. So it was fast and furious, it was very interesting.
But I the the number one takeaway I have from working at that time was the amount of people that doubted the technology and were doubting what was going on. And they were also alarmed at the amount of money being invested in there. And if that sounds familiar as to where we are right now, it's repeating itself. So I think that's what's amazing now, where I I've always looked back on my career in Wall Street from time to time, but over the last few years, I have really looked back at it because I'm like, wow, the same thing we looked at in
Ninety seven, ninety eight is happening right now. It's just happening at a much faster clip right now.
Bernie (03:55)
So you realize that AI is different from the past waves, because you see everything like, you know, different personal devices, the advent of the smartphone, you know, when Blackberry was the thing to have and then and now it's, you know, like Nokia somewhere else, or parts of it somewhere else. How is AI different?
Len (04:13)
well I think I think the number one thing that AI is different is the way we're all hearing and learning about it. I so I think that's the biggest issue we're dealing with right now in AI is we hear so many talking heads like we're doing right now. We see so many commercials, we see so many clips, so much on social media, TV, everything is like a rage bait, just click the story. And and I think the problem is that we're hearing so much of it.
That we're not giving ourselves enough time to process what it actually is and what it can do and what it cannot do. So I think we are a victim of our own success regarding how we deliver messages, you know, and how we have been delivering messages. And when you have something as seismic shift as this, it's going to come across as a as a very scary thing. So I think the way we digest the content, opposed to what it was back in '98, '99, I think that's the difference. But the other thing I'll say is that.
You know, humans had to really steer the wheel, do everything with the internet, build the websites, do this, do that. This is different where this thing is building itself. And like, you know, it's it's getting smarter and smarter and smarter. Where to me, I think the fundamental change was back then it was the user had to get smarter. And then we had intelligent people searching. So you had to learn how to become a good searcher. Where now the technology is getting smarter and trying to figure out how it can better serve you. So it's it's that shift.
That's a little different and that's what I noticed the most about
Bernie (05:36)
So you see it's getting smarter. So SEO search engine optimization, you know, that is an element, yeah, you know, there are people out there, that's their trade. You know, they they tweak your message, they add the SEO, make sure the right words are in there. How is AI influencing that? Is is it, you know, just an adjunct or is it overwhelming everything?
Len (05:54)
I think it's gonna end what we know of search engine optimization. I I and I I don't say this lightly because I I literally have been doing search engine optimization since 0304. So I you know, I'm I'm twenty-three years in the industry. So I'm I'm one of the old heads in the industry. it's it's paid my mortgage, it's done a great thing. I still believe that there is a world where SEO lives, but the importance of it over the last few years has really been ratcheted down. Every even SEO people can see that. but it's
its relevance is even going to get less and less. And here's the fundamental reason why is, and I say this every time I get a chance to say something, the where we are is we search and retrieve, you search Google, you search whatever search engine you're in, you retrieve the information, you then digest the information, then make a decision as to what you want to do going forward. and that's how typically marketing and business and everything's been conducted for the last 20 some odd years. Now we're moving over to solve my problem.
Which means you're gonna go to ChatGPT, you're gonna go to Claw, you're gonna go to Gemini, whatever one you're gonna use, and you put a problem in and it immediately solves it. You're not reading blogs, you're not doing anything like that. The weird part about it though is for it to get its information, you do have to continue doing blogs, you do have to continue doing video, and you do have to continue doing podcasts. Even though you may not reach the masses with that information, you are reaching the LLMs because they are digesting that content. so that's the problem when you
Go in and say, well, how do you say search engine optimization is dying? Because again, the term search is not a term we're going to be using too much anymore. Solve my problem is where we're moving towards. It doesn't mean you're not going to search things and look for things. It doesn't mean that. But if anyone is going to tell me that SEO is going to be in the same capacity the way it is and grow, no, we're we're way beyond growth now. Now it's, it's, it's not even plateaued. Now we're hitting the decline. So my advice is I would begin to.
start thinking about life after SEO. Although SEO still be a component, it's just not gonna be your core focus anymore.
Bernie (07:45)
So when the large language models are searching out the advice you know from from content, how do you do an attribution back? How do you do a recognition to say this this is the source? And once you do that, how do how how righteous is the source? You know, is is it like 10 points on, 100 points on? Like, you know, how do you know that that's really bona fide? That might be a bit sketchy, you know, or you know, or is there a rating scale?
Will the AI also provide that level of going, you know, golden nugget from this point? And and and it's it's a really strong source.
Len (08:19)
If I understand your question right, you're talking about citing back where in other words, what can we do to make sure that our information is cited properly? Okay.
Bernie (08:26)
Yeah. It's
not only it's not only cited properly, but like, you know, if if you say if you you're doing a research paper and someone does a study and they say, Well, you know, this medication will give you this result. And, you know, some people might be skeptical, etcetera. And research papers usually get validated because there are other research papers that, you know, they do they do the same test and go, Yep, that's the right answer.
Or you have a wrong conclusion, right? So there there's a certain strength to what's happening. Did it happen once and can we replicate it? Right. So it is is it is it on on target and is it does it have strength? You know, does it have merit? Is it like you know, if there's a restaurant you go to you like eating at and it's five star and you go there and it is a five star, right? Is there a kind of a five star rating program as well as, you know, that's a good restaurant to go to?
Len (09:13)
I think this is the thing that we're all trying to figure out and look at right now. I know that there are quite a few people out there that are promoting we can get you listed in the LLMs, we can get your website cited in the LLMs and so forth. And I come back and say the same thing. You are you are approaching this like it's a search world when not a solve my problem world. and if you start looking at a solve my problem world, you're now beginning to understand the fundamentals of how LLMs actually look at digest content.
And really interpret it and say this is what the answer is. And I think that's critical for people to understand when they are thinking about optimizing their website for LLMs. Yes, there's things like Schema code you can put on your website. Yes, they do look at metadata, which is funny because metadata for years in SEO kind of went by the wayside, although I was always a big proponent of metadata, even when people said don't do it. I think it's it's it's digesting that. So it is critical for you to make sure that you're optimizing your YouTube shorts tags or title.
your website titles and so forth because they're citing that. So typically we'll stick with ChatGPT because that's the most used. Think of those billion users a week now. they were citing websites. They were saying, okay, this type of information, and if you like clicked a little toggle, you drop down, you saw a website. Even if you did a deep research product in in Google Gemini, which very underused tool, it's great, they actually have all their cited sources, you know, at the bottom. So it does have cited sources where it is saying,
Okay, weird, this is where we pulled the information. ChatGPT, I think it was a week or two ago, started kind of letting people know that they weren't going to be citing sources a whole lot. And here's the reason why. They don't look at information and say, this is the web page that gave us the information. They work on a tokenized process. So they're looking at a series of all types of data and they're basically trying to identify what is the right answer to the question being asked. I heard this a long time ago, and I forget who said it. There was a podcast I listened to years ago.
And a guy laid it out the best way. Think of LLMs this way. Mary had a little, and you would immediately think lamb, right? That's the right answer. That's exactly how LLMs think. It's not like Mary had a little lamb. by the way, we knew it was a lamb because we went to this, this, and this. It's harvesting all the information and saying this is what the right answer is. And that's where for years you were like looking at hallucinations, right? Like, this is this is the wrong answer, and it's making stuff up. Well, the hallucinations, as we all know, you don't hear about that a whole lot.
You hear it sometimes, but these things you're getting within 80, 85% accurate, you know, answers. And I think not to get too long, I think therein lies in all the problems we're having with lawsuits and so forth, where they're scraping websites, they're taking the information, they're not citing anybody. so the way I look at this right now is that you have to start thinking away from that of how do we get into the LLMs? How you're going to get into the LLMs in time is you're gonna have custom GPTs, you're gonna have apps.
And you're gonna be in there and it's gonna be pulling your information from there and it's gonna pull up your app within custom within Chat GPT or pull up your which it's gonna it prompt you to say, would you like to work within Bernie's custom GPT to get answers? So I know it's hard to it's hard to explain because it's hard to tell people like stop thinking about your website and how to get your website in and start thinking about the new world we're gonna be living in, where it wants you to stay within that realm, meaning it doesn't want you leaving Chat GPT or Gemini.
So start thinking about where that future is. That's why, if you're a business leader, if you're a CEO, understand custom GPTs and how they work. Understand how they're starting to really roll out the apps on Chat GPT. And this is going to be Google as well. And that gives you your answer: like, well, how do I get into LLMs? Again, you could do some Shema code. We can do a few things to get you in there. Our clients are frequently cited in there. but that's not the end game with ChatGPT and Gemini. The end game is you stay in there.
You build all your websites and everything within their world and you live in that world. So when you think about that, long-winded answer, people start saying, okay, that, okay, that's clicking now. I I get it. So maybe it's not about I have to drop the mentality of SEO of how do I get cited or how does somebody look at my website? You're not going to be going to websites in a couple of years. You're going to be working within ChatGPT and your data is going to be in there.
Bernie (13:16)
Well, well I I I have to re revamp my whole website, the whole construct in that space. I have a shingle somewhere, but a couple of quick questions come up. One of the original ones was so how do I know like you know, you have Google reviews, for example, right? People are happy with. Is is that gonna be part of the end result? Like, you know, kind of a a validation from the from the client base?
Len (13:39)
I still think that there's going to be a world where reviews and things like that are going to still maybe be independent and live on their own. I still believe that if you were I like when you talk about like we'll talk about the app. So if anybody's on custom or chat GPT, they can just click that plus button down below and you're gonna see a drop down. And you're gonna notice Expedia and so forth. You're even gonna notice I think it's realtor.com. But if you click App Store, open it up.
You're gonna notice all these companies that now have apps that you can literally work within Chat GPT. So my thought process is they're probably gonna have Yelp is gonna be in there, Google reviews, I think is gonna be in there. so I do think that there's a world where that still exists. What that looks like, I don't know. But I don't think just because Chat GPT is taking over everything and Gemini that everything that we're used to right now is gonna go away. I still think reviews on social media, interacting on social media and so forth, that's still gonna be a viable thing.
how they get into the social media world to maybe start thinking about apps and all that. They'll probably start crawling all of that stuff and pulling it in. but I do think that reviews and I do think there's gonna be quite a few things that will live independently of an AI platform.
Bernie (14:44)
So if you're into the chat GPT space or the Gemini space, does that mean you know you get your apps built in there? So how does it feed other spaces? You know, it for example, there's Bing and there's Google. And you can go hunting and searching. And s I ran into one gent about 50 episodes back, and he says, I I can help do pinpoint accuracy, but we're using Bing. And I'm thinking, well,
Does that mean the person searching is using Bing? In which case that might be really optimal? Or is that is that so and is it isolated? Is it you know become like if you if you buy a a certain make a model of a car, it's you know, that's North American built. It's not gonna the parts aren't typically gonna fit a European or an Asian model. Unless of course, you know, they're kind of co co branding, but typically no, you know,
The the Mercedes piece is not gonna fit in the Chevy vault, no matter how hard you try. Is is it gonna have that disparit? Is it gonna be asiloed?
Len (15:45)
All so I've I I'm gonna try to answer this the right way. I think what's gonna happen, what I my prediction is that websites are gonna turn into repositories for all of your information. And this is gonna get to your answer. And hopefully if it doesn't, tell if I'm not arriving, if I'm not, you know, sticking this landing. your website, you're gonna be using that more. It's gonna be more of a secure data room than you think. Yes, people can interact with it. Yes, you're gonna be able to do a lot of the similar stuff you can do now, but the website is gonna be used.
As a plugin where you're going to be plugging this in via a universal type connector, and you're going to be able to plug it into any of the AI platforms. The AI platforms are it's something is going to come down the road. And there are a couple of things right now you can do, but that's my premise is that you are going to have some sort of data room that's going to basically be your website and that it's going to be a universal connector where you can connect to pretty much AI, any AI platform. That is why I've been telling people.
You really, really need to organize your data, get it in a data room, dropbox, you know, Dropbox or Google Drive or talk to your IT company about a a secure room and make sure you have all of that organized in there. Because as these things grow and as you want to build an app on ChatGPT, or if Gemini comes in and says this is the best way to build a gem, and I know you can connect Google Drive, by the way, and all that right now on some of these things, but that's what they're gonna be looking for. You're just gonna connect. It's almost gonna be like dropping your analytic code on top of, you know.
your website and then Google can read your analytics for you. It's going to be the same thing. Drop this code on top of your website. We'll read all your content. And that that's the future of where it's going to be. So no, I don't think it'll be siloed. I think they'll all work together via some sort of universal connector. That what that looks like, I don't know. But I'm sure by the end of 2026 that that that solution's going to be, you know, on the table.
Bernie (17:27)
So you mentioned something earlier about having an app, you know, you'll you'll you talked about Expedia, for example, they'll have an app and they're you hit the plus sign. Is that gonna be the next kind of cottage industry, app building?
Len (17:40)
I think so, but but I don't think it's going to be an industry that's going to be a massive growth industry. I think it's going to do well. I think it's the absolute excellent point for marketers to enter in on. because I know a mark, a lot of marketers don't know where they're they they fit in the AI world and being a you know marketer for the better part of close to you know over two decades now, th this is your entry point. Learn how to build these apps. And it's not gonna be difficult. You're not gonna club your client over the head for a twenty five thousand dollar app build. You know, it's it's it's pretty easy.
but I think how to optimize that app. I think those apps are going to turn into how pay-per-click is going to work on ChatGPT. So Bernie's in there, you know, you and your wife want to go on a vacation. Let's say you're looking at Turks and Caicos, whatever it may be, you're going to get prompted. Would you like to work within the Expedia app or whatever app, American Airlines app, to maybe help you find the right vacation? You'll say, you what? I'll make on Expedia.
And you're gonna go in there and you're gonna build your entire vacation right in there. Xpedia's gonna pay them 100 bucks, whatever it may be. And I think that is how it's gonna how the future's gonna look. So the app, all as it is, they're very interesting. I actually did a really, really quick video on it on our our channel. And for I actually did, I think it was realter.com. Might be might be or the other the other, I'm trying to think if there's another real estate company. I'm it I can't remember who realtor and there's another one. Anyway, it's on there. And what I
Was showing is that because I like to look at investment real estate. And by no means am I an expert, but I like to peek my head in and take a look around. And typically when I go look for things that I might want to invest in, I have to go to five different websites. I have five different tabs opened up. I'm writing some notes down, right? You're doing all that. Well, this got it to the point where it actually targeted the area right for me. It knew the money I wanted to spend. It identified the type of renter I want to look for down there. I mean, all the way down to mortgage calculators, everything. I never left ChatGPT.
I stayed right within that app, which that's again, it was solving my problem. Len is looking to invest in real estate. This was down in Florida. He wants to make sure that he has enough renters, you know, at the place where he doesn't have to spend a lot of money out of pocket. He wants a low HOA. He wants to make sure there's a right property manager. This is all stuff typically you would go look for in a million different areas. And I know some websites have a lot of this stuff, but I was blown away. I'm like, I never once went to Google. I never once had to go anywhere else. I just was here.
So this expedient now turned into one website that was able to handle multiple different tasks for me right away. And I was able to run a bunch of tasks in there as well. So that's what the app future is going to look like. So your website, how you propose things to people, if you're thinking about building a website now or you're thinking about what AI looks like 2026, think about that app world and think about how you're going to be solving problems. And that's the type of content you want to start thinking about.
The apps could change. There could be a brand new thing that they roll out, you know, next week, which I'm sure they will, but that road is beginning to get a little clearer. They had apps, took them away, bought them back. And the more I interact with them, the more I I think that's where that's where their pay-per-click is, they're they're trying to land that right there.
Bernie (20:41)
Well, that that's a brave new world rolling around the corner. So so if you're in an existing company, for example, there's a commercial world who I deal with. And he has a course on helping understand you just because you mentioned it's what's what's what's bringing it to mind now. He has a course on real estate investing, understanding all the components, you know, the ratios, it's it's more than just the you know, is there
support in the area, you know, if you if buying commercial, for example, what's buried under the floorboards that might be of concern to you that you're just buying into, et cetera, is that something that he would then what would he have to do to instigate? So I'm I'm you know, I'm using him as an example, but what would someone do? They're a coach, they're or they have a true tangible asset as in there, there's a widget attached to it.
What is what's their next step? Well, like what do they do? Do they they reach out to the lens in the world or do they sit back and find someone that's you know, a a coder? do they vibe code? You know, the the other new term. you know what corner do they where do they go peeking?
Len (21:45)
So there's a couple of things I would do for them. and when I give information out and when I give advice out, I say this all the time. A lot of people are like, Wow, that's a lot of information you're giving out. And I say this frequently. Years ago, you may remember this too.
When you were doing pay-per-click campaigns, you're like, well, it's gonna be the end of marketers because everybody's gonna be able to do pay-per-click. You they're just they're everyone's gonna know how to do it. But what they forgot is that people need to run their business. They don't have time to do pay-per-click. They need somebody to do that for them. That's okay. Anybody, you want to be a welder, you could learn that tomorrow and be a welder. You know, but the pro I'm and I'm not discounting the welding profession, but so what I would do is this if somebody were to come to me and hire me, my consulting on that right away would be if you are doing that, I would start working with a notebook LLM.
Which is a very underutilized product for Google. You could upload all of your information in there. And then you could share that notebook LLM with some of your clients or some of your students. And it only interprets and works with your data. It doesn't go out to the internet. It doesn't go anywhere. It's all of your data in there that an individual can work with. In there, they can create flashcards, they can create a video, they can create a podcast of your information, a complete actual like presentation.
It is a powerful, powerful tool that basically has your data with an AI brain on top of it, but it it's it's your own library, meaning there's no, it doesn't walk out into the street to go try to find other books. So whatever you put in there is all it's gonna talk about. And it can hold an enormous amount of data. So you can get a lot of other stuff in there as well. I would probably start with something like that. how I my if I had to put my futuristic glasses on, how's it gonna look for them? I think they will create their own app.
And I think if Len is looking at investing in commercial property in Nebraska, I will connect to the Expedia app, or not the Expedia app, I'll connect to the Realtor.com app for the commercial business. And then I'll connect to your clients app. And I'm gonna lean on that. I'm gonna work with both of those apps to say, okay, I'm I'm finding the information on realtor.com and then I'm sticking with this teacher's, you know, fundamental things on how I need to learn how to invest in in this type of thing. And I think you would work with both apps. What would happen?
Is ChatGPT is going to continue to get smarter and smarter and smarter and that it's going to start giving you much better answers using all of that data to get you there quicker. So if I had to forecast it, that's where I think they're going to go. But I think for them right now, using like a notebook LLM and really learning on that and sharing that with their clients, I think would be a really, really good step for them to take right now because that kind of you still have your data gated, nobody can get to it, and you have an AI component to it. And now
your students can now create flashcards and all kinds of stuff that for years you had to pay for people to do that stuff. If you're creating an entire teaching seminar, you know, we have to have this designed and that done. You're not doing you don't need to do that anymore. Those those days are done.
Bernie (24:26)
Wow. Does this also apply to say if if you're an enterprise solution and you know your data is residing between in behind your own walls? In other words, it's not in the wild like you were saying earlier with notebook L L
Can you also leverage that is that also a useful tool internally, even if you're not aimed outwards to the universe at large?
Len (24:47)
Yeah. So that's we've actually have come across a couple of clients where their their data can't get unlocked. And meaning they're in really, really clunky old CRMs or, you know, POS systems. They can't get it out. I I think there and I know that there's a couple of businesses that are doing it right now. The businesses that can go in and unlock the data from these places, that's gonna be a great business. Now I think that's a n I don't think it's gonna be a ten year industry. I think it's gonna be the next like five year type thing.
because you you gotta remember, like once this starts catching on, it's you're gonna you could vibe code a CRM right now that's ten times more powerful than what you have internally. That's where we are. but getting that data, you may have a we have one client, I I swear they're on a CRM that's like fifteen years old. They can't even get out of it. And you and they can't just do an export. You would think, it's exported. And I remember asking me, he's like, Yeah, they don't let us export. I'm like, they don't let you export. It's like, what's your data? So
So a lot of custom CRMs and custom platforms were built by developers for years, as we all know. And small businesses like they have their own platform. Well, how do you get that stuff out? Especially if the company's barely supporting it. But that business is dawning. And I do know that there's a few people out there doing that. So that is if you are in that situation, look around. there might even be a company called Clarity.ai. I think that's the name, one of them. They can help you get that data out, but that's essential.
be a 2026 initiative. If you can't get your data out, you're going to need to get it out. It's it's tired of hire it, you have to hire somebody to get it out for
Bernie (26:13)
just a print up, just keep printing.
Len (26:16)
You could
yeah. Well, you could do that and digitize it too. That's another thing. Absolutely. You could do it. Yeah. And that that is absolutely another who's Iron Mountain and things like that can do that for you. So that that's another option as well.
Bernie (26:26)
So this all kind of speaks back to a flow, a workflow and doing design. So y y you wanna keep stuff current. So
You know, searching information is one thing, right? And and f making things findable for external parties, internal parties for your your own crew, even if you're like a five man squad.
How do you structure your AI so that you know the right chunk of information goes to the right spot and it's had a QA so that it's you know, I I know you you're saying the hallucinations is is is diminishing, but you know, every once in a while I'll ask Claude, you know, write me something and I'm going, that's handy. That was the last task, not this task. And I'm new chat, and I'm like, this is what I'm looking for, right? And so, you know, I I every once in a while I have to go back and go.
or or you know, let's keep us on the same page, right? And and on on Go. How do you structure the workflow then and for a for a business, for the whole system and not just, you know, what people are knocking the door for?
Len (27:21)
You want to start targeting the employees that have been there longer term. I say this a lot and this doesn't it's not even it's has nothing to do with ageism or anything like that. But one of my things that I really have staked my claim on is that Gen X is a major, major contributor to AI and is going to be a major cog in in AI, the transition of it, because you have to understand how the business works.
Understanding how the business works and the flow of the business, not every business, not every industry, but a lot of businesses, the individual has to be there a long time. They have to have been working in there a long time. They have to understand the nuances of it. I understand there could be somebody in their 20s and 30s who could grab AI and really learn and bone up on everything about the business processes, but each business has their own unique bottlenecks and their own unique paths on how they accomplish a task. So to me,
The most important thing you want to do is identify the one or two people that understand the business processes, understand the flow, project managers, you know, maybe even your chief technology officer, but people who've been in the business for a while and sit down and then have that conversation with them. Because when you have that conversation, without a shadow of a doubt, a person's working at a company 10, 15 years, you know, 20 years, 25 years, is gonna be like, these are typically the five bottlenecks we always have.
The minute you know the bottlenecks, you're now gonna know exactly how to start building the processes. AI is the greatest thing AI can do right now is smash bottlenecks. That's like one of the best things you can do. So lean on individuals in in the business. Actually have them put pen to paper. Why don't you write this down for me? Why don't you give me a diagram of how you do this? Because it's funny, you can actually upload a diagram into these AI platforms and they've why you do it on claw, do it anywhere. And they can vibe code a product all the way around that. That's one
One thing we do with like a CRM when somebody's looking at it, draw it, or discuss your entire thing, have Chat GPT listen because you can have it listen or you know, set a meeting up where you're talking. You can do it on otter. You can have that up there. It can record and listen to you, or record this, you know, on Zoom. And you upload that document into like ChatGPT, have a develop a blueprint, take that blueprint, bring it over to your vibe coding product, Claude, whatever it may be, codex, and it'll start building it.
And it'll start building a custom CRM for you for what it looks like. So that's one way in which you walk in and start approaching approaching it. Really lean on the individuals that have been there a while. So when you're Gen X, my generation, I can't have a conversation with people anymore in my age who doesn't have a genuine concern about their job. Not only are they concerned about AI, but they're concerned because of their age. And I tell them when I come back and say this: you're at one of the greatest opportunities.
That we have that we have ever seen. So we were lucky enough to be to start with the internet is how we all started our careers with the internet. And now we have AI because for AI really to work, it has to understand all the flows and the processes. And who better than somebody that's been working in the industry 25, 30 years to sit down and start having a conversation with it? So that's how it's gonna look. And that's my recommendation to people. So if you're in your 50s and you're thinking your career is kind of teetering.
Really, really start diving into AI because you're going to become a very, very valuable component, one of the more valuable people in your office. Where it's funny, for years when it was technologies like, get the young kid, get the young kid. The young kid will figure it out. Now, here come the old guys and the old ladies coming in to say, Hey, I think we can do this. So a little bit of a little bit of uplifting for people in my in my genre. I I think I think I think we have a little bit of a runway left here.
Bernie (30:49)
It's kind of a sidebar question on bottlenecks. If you if you solve a bottleneck, does that mean another one will pop up elsewhere? Because the first bottleneck took care of the the subsequent one. It's sort of like, you know, I went to get it some kind of a reverse model. My brakes failed my master cylinder and apparently the the brake fluid went all the way down the line. And so I'm asking the guy, I said, So when's the car gonna be ready? He says, Well, because it's warranty work, right?
And he says, Well, your pro the first problem caused the second problem, which means now, you know, it and it goes down the ch it's kind of a food chain. I'm sitting there going, lovely, my car is gonna rot out. So when you come across a a bottleneck, i if you solve that bottleneck, is there is there a chance that although that it hasn't appeared yet, that now once you have throughput that you're gonna hit another bottleneck? And is that something that the the the the
employee will well I know how to resolve this, but is not already identified in the system. Is that a potential?
Len (31:46)
I think that's where AI will start stepping in and walking in and help out because how you frame that as you go into it, if you're going to vibe code a product or if you're going to build custom GPT, whatever it may be, you go in and say, This is the bottleneck we're going to address. Can you please go in and identify bottlenecks that will arise after this? And what plannings could we lay down right now that will eliminate future bottlenecks going forward? So it's how you prompt the system to do that because then it's going to take every single piece of data possibly and look at every type of bottleneck that's going to pop up.
And it doesn't mean it's going to solve it perfectly, but you're going to know all the bottlenecks in front of you. It's going to know all the bottlenecks in front of it. And it's going to start trying to reach that solution. That's again, I think that's the whole takeaway on AI is it learns, it gets smarter and smarter and smarter every time you ask it to do something. And before and what'll happen is the next time you go to prompt, even after it's done that, it's already going to know on the next bottlenecks it fixes. It'll put as it lists down all the work it's going to do.
It's gonna say address future bottlenecks. And it just and that's it. And so that that's what it does. So that's what I tell people. I'm like, I I don't think that's the little thing I think people are missing on AI. Like, have you noticed you hadn't reminded again? Because the memory of it is getting really, really good. And that's where we're starting to move to a different, different level.
Bernie (32:59)
So better spouse than is what you're saying, it becomes of sorts.
Len (33:02)
Yeah.
Bernie (33:03)
The lead funnel and AI. What what evolutions do you see happening in there?
Len (33:07)
Yeah, I I get that question a lot. I that's I don't know what lead generation is going to look like in the future. I really don't. you know, you know, I I still believe we are at the crossroads of like of influencer marketing and AI. And if search is beginning to pull back, what does that look like? I don't know. But I do think a lot of people are, you know, I I I think a lot of people are gonna start having their problems solved in a very different way.
You know, and if I just said that AI was able to properly forecast four bottlenecks, right? So that's gonna do the same thing in your own life when you're using it as personal assistant. It's gonna you're you're gonna make a decision on a car or you're gonna make a decision on a vacation, and it's already gonna identify the four things in front of you. And it's gonna have those companies waiting as who to work with. So that's where I believe we are at some point gonna move into agent-to-agent marketing. I think you're gonna have a personal agent way sooner than you think, by the way. that's coming like very soon.
And companies are gonna have personal agents. Like right now, we put chatbots on websites that are getting smarter and smarter and smarter. And your agent's gonna work with that agent. So you and we'll go back to you and your wife when you're planning a vacation, right? Okay, that's good. my God, how are we gonna get from the airport? Well, well, well, what do we do for the food? The little things that you don't think about for this, it's it's gonna have all that lined up for you. And you're never once gonna interact with the company that's gonna pick you up from the airport. You're never once gonna interact with maybe an excursion.
Like it's all gonna be ready for you. It's gonna know what credit card to put it on. It's gonna know what you and your wife like to do. You just have to give it the the approval. So what does lead generation look like when it's like that? So when it's agent-to-agent marketing. Well, you have to you know, nobody knows what that is yet, but the breadcrumbs are here. Like the roads beginning to emerge. Like we know it's crawling when you're on podcasts, because we know it's in there. we know that it's crawling YouTube shorts. Matter of fact, I think Gary Vaynerchuk put something up about that a little while ago and I thought it was great.
Because he was right about that. and it is crawling like certain social things. So, you know, well, what do we have to do? Well, I think, you know, the question is for lead generation, you have to start embracing brand. You have to start embracing like advertising your brand and to start thinking about you know, influencer marketing and start thinking about doing videos or more podcasts because this is what the LLMs are really looking for. You can't hide behind your website to get a lead anymore. I don't like that. I don't do video. I don't either, you know. So
I don't but but we have to do it.
Bernie (35:23)
Yeah.
Len (35:26)
Yeah,
yeah. So and and I think that's where we're starting to break the mentality of no, you're not gonna be able to pay money. They're gonna click a product or click your link and then they're gonna fill out a form and they're gonna wait two to three days for you to call back. That's not gonna happen anymore. We're moving to the point now where will they interact with you via a direct messenger on AI, they want the answer right now, not three, four days down the road.
So little things like that, I think how lead gen is going to work. And I think the other way for lead gen, this is where vibe coding comes in, you're gonna need to have a series of tools on your website of vibe code products that solve problems right away. So whatever it may be, whatever problem somebody would arrive at your website for, whatever business it may be, l legal construction, realtor, whatever it may be, what problems can you solve like immediately? Like what can you do? and I think that's where lead generation is gonna go. So and I so in summary.
Really start investing in your brand right now and really start looking at podcasting, YouTube shorts, Instagram, even TikTok. Start thinking about this world because this is where your clients live and more importantly, it's where the LLMs are crawling right now.
Bernie (36:27)
Wow. So jobs. Yeah, we touched on it earlier and you just said, hey, listen, you're a Gen Xer. Don't sweat it. You know, your gold. So what jobs, what roles are gonna be, that's unfortunate. don't don't don't line up with for that that counter for education, but you should be learning this. What are the what do you see is happening in the next five to ten or at least five, where people should focus for work in the AI space?
Len (36:53)
Five years? Five to ten I won't even that's a long time. I would not we're in a marketing industry. I would not be betting or hedging the market on marketing right now. I would not be going in and really trying to learn everything you can about marketing. I think marketing's gonna get directly impacted. I think there should we still need marketers. That advertising's never going away. But the amount of people in a marketing agency is not gonna be needed anymore. That's just not.
Customer service is going to be directly impacted, no question. Especially as the AI chatbots get smarter and smarter and can start pulling answers right away. These are
Bernie (37:25)
Or
Len (37:26)
the chat bots you're used to on a website that's real clunky, never gives you an answer, and just like, give me your name and number. Well, these things solve problems right away. Customer service is going to be hurt. I do think a lot of service-based businesses are going to be impacted. You know, I do think the accounting world, I think the legal world is going to get impacted. and I think.
You know, a lot of consulting type businesses is going to be impacted, business services. But I say this on the flip side. Once we get through all of that, I do believe we're going to hit the dawn of the golden age of entrepreneurship. I do think that there's going to be more people that are going to businesses in the next two, three years than we've ever seen. I think you're going to have two, three-person shops where the prediction is they'll be doing a million to two million dollars a year. I agree with that as well. The unemployment is going to come not from you not understanding AI.
The unemployment's gonna come because the company you've worked for has not made the commitment to understanding what AI is and the seismic shift it is. So start identifying the large companies that employ thousands and thousands of people who are still pushing back on AI. Because what's gonna happen is the two or three person shops are gonna out-hustle and outmaneuver these large shops. And these large shops are not gonna be able to know what to do and they're gonna start losing business in droves because the people want answers right away.
So these bottlenecks and these gigantic corporate conglomerates, that's where the unemployment's gonna come from. And that is where I think people really need to start paying attention. Pay attention to the companies you're investing in the stock market. If the company you're investing in is pushing, kicking AI can down the road, you better not be investing in that company anymore. You know, so software companies that are telling you everything's fine, all is fine, as the whole building is on fire, you know, no, it's not fine. There's a problem, you got a problem. What are you gonna do to solve it? So
But that's my prediction on where unemployment comes from, not because Bernie and Len didn't know AI, they're fired. You know, these do let's get these old timers out of here, they don't know they're doing. Nope, that that's the unemployment's coming from the other way.
Bernie (39:18)
One other question, this is a company invests in an LLM that is closed box or as a personal agent, whose allegiance does that LLM belong to? And what I what I'm getting at is once you invest in a platform, it's say even if you buy a motor vehicle, once you buy a motor vehicle, you you're making an investment, right? It's typically renting it, in which case it'd be short term, but when you buy a an asset.
that you're gonna use. Well yeah, say it's a work truck even for a for a contractor.
That's your vehicle. but in in the SaaS world
It's it's it's you know, and even in the even in the auto industry, now they're you know, they're gonna be up up charging you for, you know, f features because you have to buy a subscriber component to it. you know, adding your, you know, certain high end vehicles and now making you pay more so you can tap your phone into it. At the end of the day, whose allegiance does the software maybe allegiance is the wrong word, but you know, ownership or rights.
Is there any any part in there that people should be mindful of?
Len (40:15)
You mean software c like what do you I'm trying to think? Like you mean like software companies like a sales force or something like that or?
Bernie (40:20)
Yeah, Salesforce. Well, for example, if if you're using Facebook or Instagram and you or TikTok and you fire in the wrong word, the system says, you know, strike one. And you're going, strike one for what? Like you know, if if you don't know, right? And if you haven't paid for the service, they can block you out and you have to go through a whole cycle of reloading yourself in. What I'm getting at is are you the owner of
of that app. if the say notebook LLM decides to we're shifting gears and that's happened. You know, Google says, listen, this product's not working out so much for us and we're winding it down. Meanwhile, you invested a lot of a lot of energy in that box. And maybe it maybe it's time to evolve.
where do you start and stop or where do you have to, I guess, stay in tune to make sure that the personal bot for yourself is cares about you more than anything else versus a company downstream that's you know maybe supporting it. is there any guardrail in there? Maybe that's the best word to to define there. Are there any guardrails that you some longevity, some lifespan?
I got cars like five to ten here.
Len (41:22)
I don't think there is. I mean, if you're building companies on top of your if you're using the API keys for, you know, Gemini or or Claude or or or OpenAI, Grok, whoever, I know, if they're gonna make changes, it's the same way where people were trying to build a lot of products on top of what Google was doing, like you said, and the minute Google made a change, they they have no loyalty to you in any capacity. None. So if there's a w change in Chat GPT and how they, how they're
their keys work, their API keys. There's nothing you can do to protect yourself, which, which, you know, there's, you know, the term I heard a while ago, and it's a very concerning term, is that it's not, you're not gonna be called software anymore. You're gonna be calling it disposable software, which it's kind of concerning if you're like a coder, right? I mean that's like, whoa, these are some of the brightest people you've ever seen in your life. And but now they're creating products that, you know,
There's just not going to be used a whole lot. Like you can vibe code a single presentation that looks amazing. It looks like any better than any piece of software that's out there right now. And you may use it for one presentation. Go on. And then you're just going to get rid of it. So I think that's where we are because who wants to make the commitment to build a massive infrastructure on top of open AI, unless open AI is some sort of investment in you? I I I would not build a business like that. I would build a business where what I tell people, which is what we do.
What Commexis is AI pilots. We know how to pilot these things. We'll we'll sit in the cockpit of anything AI and we'll fly it. but if we are not bringing the plane, like you, you know, and that that's what it is. We'll just come in and fly it for you. And I think if that's the analogy I use to people, like become an AI pilot, that or be an AI pilot business. That's kind of the future where software is. I don't believe that there is
a future in software. I I really don't. I know I get pushback a lot on this and people kinda really kind of come at me on that. But if you've really if you've worked on vive coding products and even though they're not a hundred percent there, there's no way in your right mind you could look at it and say software has a future in the next two, three years. I mean it'll be there, but it's good again, disposable software is what it's gonna be. It's just gonna be and anyone's gonna be able to create it. So the moat that they had is gone.
it it's gone. It doesn't exist anymore. You just need to know how to do it. And I am not by any stretch a developer, a coder in in any capacity. but I understand work processes and workflows and systems. And now for me to go in and be able to build this stuff right now quickly, it this would have cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars to build for clients. And now I can have a functioning software product up and running in about a day for you, which looks amazing.
Bernie (43:50)
Wow. Len. Books, podcasts, blogs, what do you got out there? People can tap into your knowledge base and get their LLMs pointed to you. Yeah.
Len (43:59)
I
mean we you could just literally go to commexis.com and you can like click on any of our social links. We we do put up a lot on YouTube shorts and so forth. I do kind of try to try to weekly get out something called field notes. it's been it's been like an every few week thing. But basically what I do is I just write a a blog, very easy to digest and read. I just say this is literally what I'm seeing in the last couple of weeks of AI. and it kind of keeps you there. So that that's pretty much it. Yeah, you could just kind of follow us there. And if you have any questions or concerns.
Do a contact form. I'm the one who responds to all the contact forms and I'm more than happy to have a, you know, conversation with you to see you see where you are.
Bernie (44:33)
And what areas do you service? Are you just local, continental?
Len (44:37)
we'll do anything. Yeah, we'll do anything in North America. I most of our client base is pretty much, is concentrated in the greater Philadelphia region, but we'll do anything. We've had clients all over the country. We've actually had clients over the world, but yeah, anything in North America.
Bernie (44:48)
Perfect. Len Ward, I want to say thank you so much for your time today. Very insightful. And you, the Knack 4 Business listeners, we appreciate your time.
Len (44:55)
So
Bernie (44:56)
Len has watched the dot com boom and from a Wall Street trading desk and he saw companies go up and down. And they all misunderstood the technology. Now he's helping leaders avoid that same mistake with AI. And based on what we just chatted about today, your website is your repository, not your not your front door necessarily. to reach us,
go to our website, Knack 4 Business. That's the word knack, then the number four, business.com, and use our web index or chatbot to find out about past episodes.