Body language specialist Joseph McGuire shows leaders how to read people, prevent hiring mistakes, and win high-stakes negotiations. For SMB owners and business leaders.
GROWTH PILLAR: Leadership & Ops
WHO THIS IS FOR: SMB owners / Solopreneurs / Corporate escapees / Leaders building systems
WHAT THEY'LL GAIN: How to read body language in interviews, catch deception without paranoia, and negotiate with clarity using behavioral insight tools.
Most leaders believe they're solid judges of character. The hiring data says otherwise. And every wrong person in the room costs you more than money, it costs you momentum, trust, and time you won't get back.
Joseph McGuire is the founder of ClearSight Communications and a global specialist in high-stakes human insight. His background spans ancient Chinese face reading — a 3,000-year-old practice called miancheng — over 30 years in holistic therapy, and deep work in C-suite interviewing and behavioral negotiation. He helps leaders and organizations decode what people really think, feel, and intend — before the wrong person ends up in the wrong seat.
In this episode, Joseph and Bernie cover:
Connect with Joseph:
Joseph McGuire on LinkedIn
ClearSight Communications
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Next Steps
Bernie (00:22)
So question to the audience, why do you keep misreading people in high stakes moments? That's the real tension, isn't it? You hire someone who looks perfect on paper, but isn't. You walk out of a negotiation thinking you won, but you didn't. You trust the title instead of understanding the human being behind it. In this episode, our guests will unpack how your body speaks volumes, how to decode truth, lies, motives, and hidden intent using ancient
face reading methods, body language insight, and behavioral negotiation skills. That brings us to our guest, Joseph McGuire He is the founder of ClearSight Communications and a specialist in high stakes human insight.
Since 1985, he's taught the ancient Chinese art of face reading, known as miancheng, along with advanced body language skills, first to healthcare professionals as tools for sharper diagnosis and clearer communication. A qualified holistic therapist for over 30 years, Joseph has later expanded into negotiation, interrogation, and elicitation methods to better decode what people really think and feel. Today, he works with leaders and organizations to improve...
C-level interviewing and behavioral negotiation skills, helping them understand the person behind the title, their true motives, goals and intent. With global executive failure rates sitting between 50 to 70 percent in the first 18 months, Joseph focuses on getting it right the first time. He is also passionate about helping women recognize real character and intention in dating.
Joseph, absolute pleasure having you here today. Thank you so much for joining us. you have a favorite quote or saying you'd like to share,
Joseph (01:54)
I have several. The one that immediately comes to mind is from Richard Feynman. I'd rather have
Questions that can't be answered, that answers that can't be questioned.
I've placed great value in curiosity.
Bernie (02:05)
I love that. That's an excellent saying. So face reading, it's something in high school going, you know, I think when I grew up, I want to be the great reader of faces and bodies. What brought you into this space?
Joseph (02:16)
It wasn't a master plan. I was reading people as a child. just intuitively knew a lot about people, about character, was being upfront, who was hiding things, who was confident and who lacked confidence, but was putting on the mask. I just intuitively knew that stuff and just assumed if it's obvious to me, it must be obvious to everybody else. So it wasn't it, but it wasn't until many years later when I found myself in London. I'm Irish, grew up in Dublin, found my way to Israel for a time, then moved to London, started to study there.
That was where I trained as initially as a shiatsu practitioner, but I was introduced to facial diagnosis. And when I was introduced to that, it was just like light bulbs flashing everywhere. I immersed myself in it totally. was having those conversations with my fellow students as well. And I was also working with one of my teachers in his health food store. So every time somebody would come into the store, he would ask, OK, what's his condition? What's her condition? It was just total immersion in reading people faces and body language. But
I was ultimately more fascinated by the broader Chinese use of it because it wasn't just used in Chinese medicine, it was used in politics and business over some 3000 years. And I was more fascinated by the personality traits, character traits, communication style, stress triggers and responses and a lot more that are static facial features reveal and then obviously added on things about body language, facial expression and then how people speak.
Bernie (03:34)
so that 3000 years of this and being a practice art, does it just tell you the surface? Does it tell you the depth? And the reason I'm asking this is sort of like, you know, the miles traveled on a car, you you can look at it and get engaged the mileage, but it doesn't tell you sometimes the story. Does it also give you the story behind the miles traveled or kilometers in this case?
Joseph (04:00)
It won't always give you the detail but it will tell you how people have been affected by experiences, what type of experiences they're likely to have been affected by and how they're likely to respond particularly then under stress.
Bernie (04:12)
So we touched on it originally, we talked about healthcare and you were capitalizing on this as a service to healthcare professionals.
Two questions come to mind in this. I can understand the healthcare specialist, much like when you're working in that one place doing the medicine, what's going on? But does does the ailment cloud the actual persona? Because if I'm in pain, I might wince more, right? I mean, I'm probably going down a very gross analytics here. Or if I'm sleep deprived.
groggy, know, eyes are baggy and that type of stuff. Does it mask or does it just, you know, it's just another layer of information.
Joseph (04:49)
There's an element of both, I guess.
My role, because I was coming from a traditional oriental perspective, which is always that the mind and the body are inseparably connected, which is really what neuroscience is demonstrating nowadays. I was always looking at the person rather than trying to name a condition. I didn't put labels like arthritis or whatever on anybody. So I was more concerned with how their whole system was responding and looking to strengthen from within. The Western medical model is about
effectively fighting an illness, identifying and fighting an illness. The traditional oriental approach was always strengthening from within so that our immune system is automatically rejecting the illness effectively. That's a simplification, but in essence, that's what it is. So when I'd be looking at somebody and listening to them, I'm looking at their overall condition. I'm looking at which areas are vital, which areas are thriving, where they're
where they're showing real strong signs of energy and looking to boost that rather than simply focus on the area where the problem is. And that could be, that could be, they could have made an appointment for.
a back problem, migraine, asthma, whatever it might be. So I would be combining a number of approaches. I'm obviously observing, reading faces and body language. I'm looking at facial expression, et cetera. I'm paying attention then to how they speak because their tone of voice and the cadence will reveal a lot. But then I would be also working hands on. And there are areas of areas of the body which are used for diagnostic purposes. So they would tell me a lot about
which areas are most affected, which organs or body systems are most affected. But also, I'm not sure, I can't explain it logically, but when I would put my hands on somebody, their body would tell me what was really going on. And this was beyond any technical diagnostic skills I learned. So it wasn't unusual for me to put my hands on somebody's back and their back to tell me, their marriage is in trouble or they've been badly assaulted or whatever it might be. So that would influence
I treated them, not just the treatment itself but how I even spoke to them, my tone of voice, because sometimes I had to tread very carefully, very gently with people because in some cases it was obvious that where they'd been traumatized the trauma was buried deeply and they weren't, they were no longer conscious of it and that was not actually unusual in like 30 years of practice.
Bernie (07:09)
Wow.
So human beings have been around for a while, as you can tell by the Chinese history. Why is it that, and I'm going to flip over to Western culture, why is it that we have a hard time reading people? Because you figure after a while, hit miss, hit miss, that you'd be getting fine-tuned. And some people are really good at it. Some people play poker. They know how to mask certain looks, go to extra efforts to hide the tells.
and other people just, you know, they're oblivious, you know, just ta-da, here I am. know, like a Roman candle in the middle of the night.
Joseph (07:42)
Yeah, absolutely. Most of us have been conditioned out of it. We've been taught to second guess ourselves and that applies particularly to so many women I've spoken to where they've met precisely the wrong guy and got involved with the wrong guy. And so often they've known from very early on and then they've second guessed themselves. They've allowed themselves to be persuaded. Oh no, he really loves me, etc.
So many of us have been conditioned to work from what, certainly in this country, in Ireland and the UK, we used to refer to as the top two inches. We don't trust our gut. We don't pay attention to or even recognize our gut. Where the Oriental approach was probably much more intuitive in that regard. And the understanding now, not just in terms of the traditional Oriental understanding, but in many areas like neuroscience,
epigenetics, we're recognizing that the body is actually a transmitter and a receiver. We're continually receiving and transmitting energy to and from our body. So it's learning to pay attention to that rather than just rather than just again, going back to this, the top two inches. And so many people, unfortunately, in business and in their personal lives can be seduced by words and can get caught up in what we refer to as charisma.
We meet people who are charming and elegant and eloquent and we can be persuaded because of that. And so many people also on the other side of that coin, unfortunately lack confidence and they're looking to be persuaded, which makes us vulnerable.
Bernie (09:09)
It almost sounds like authenticity is the key element. One, for the person that is observing, they're... How should I best put it? Not ego, but their confidence is not there. And then on the flip side, the other person is very confident, but is going, the droids you seek are not here, is the magician's thing. How do you...
How do you get a person to adjust those senses? I mean, I know you can come in and say, listen, I'm parachuting in. We'll touch on the C-Suite interviews soon enough. But how do you get a person to go, listen, let's tune you up a little bit in a good way. you have take the veils off, or the rose-colored glasses off, I guess, for lack of words. How do you gear them up?
Joseph (09:58)
Yeah, you have to to retrain people, remind people. And I haven't yet met anybody who doesn't have a memory of having a having what you just call it a good feeling that proved to be accurate, but where they second guess themselves. And if you can bring them back to that and remind them of it's not like I'm not a hypnotist, but we can we can remind people through whether it's auto suggestion or whatever to go back into that.
physiological consciousness, you like, physiological awareness, and what was that state they were in when they got that gut feeling, that flash, that proved to be accurate. And once people remember that, once people remember that state, and once people are actually taking care of their gut, which is another factor as well, because so many people don't pay attention to what they're putting into their gut or how they're putting it in.
And that's an important factor in terms of our gut feeling, being clear and being accurate. But once people have that memory of, yes, that was it, that was right, that was accurate, it's easy enough to remind them it's then just a matter of practice and then practice, practice, practice.
Bernie (10:59)
So in the C-suite, when you're doing interviews for positions that can change the course of a company, the whole gravity pull, right? When people are showing up for interviews, I'm to flip it around, not so much for the interviewer, but the person showing up for the interview. What should they be? mean, assuming you're not trying to...
I guess better words to say you're not trying to be something you're not. How do you be authentic to the people that are interviewing you and have some success, assuming that the skill set you have matches the work that's coming up? Is there a way to train yourself to be, see, don't go into poker face mode?
Joseph (11:38)
Yeah, there's so many variations on that one.
I rarely work with the candidate. That's first thing. more on the other side of the table. But certainly, if you're going to go for an interview, it's
At C-suite level, there's an expectation you're going to be reasonably eloquent, you're going to be reasonably articulate, you should be reasonably confident. So they're pretty much given. But one thing I think many people underestimate is the importance of preparing in terms of knowing who you're going to be interviewed by. And you should have an ability to read the room.
And that's again where people fall down and they look, people so often look to sell themselves rather than actually communicate. That's one of the big failings. They look to persuade. Again, you use the word authentic. Show up as being real and don't try to be perfect. Because if you're trying to be perfect, that will come across. Trying, trying, know, was it Yoda said, there is no try?
Bernie (12:33)
So true. So from the interviewer point of view, obviously, know the lay of the land in your room. You know the players that are there. And you could have three qualified candidates standing in front of you. And everybody, in other words, is no lack of skill. But there might be the temperament or the ability to get along with the people in the room or the
people they're going to be working with next. How do you find the best fit then? Because assuming no one's trying to hide anything, but now you're trying to go, ah, you know, this is a good flavor. That's not such a good flavor. It's too stark or it's too wild. Yeah. Over to you, sir.
Joseph (13:10)
Yes, first of all, I don't have to know so much about the technicalities of the role. That's for the other members of the panel to ask questions about. But I do need to know about the culture of the company. I do need to know who the successful candidate is likely to be working with. I do need to know something about the composition of the team. I do need to know the vision going forward. What indicates success for not just the candidate, but the company over the next 12, 18?
36 months, whatever it might be. And then I will work with the panel. I will do some preparation work with the panel to be very clear about that. We understand each other, that we're all on the same page. And I will give them certain instructions about how I work. And key instructions there are if I speak in the interview. They stay silent. And when the candidate responds to my question or my
elicitated suggestion and I stay silent, the panel stays silent because there's a specific reason for my silence because there's something else needs to be uncovered.
And that's where a lot of interviewers and lot of interview panels fall short. They speak too much.
They don't allow that space and they can also unfortunately get caught up in their own biases. And we're unlikely to be able to leave all our biases at the door.
But as far as possible, park them. Because so many interviews fail or appointments fail because the interviewers have been caught up in their own biases either for or against. They like people because they're reminded of something or they're in the same club or they share the same activities. And that's got nothing to do with the role.
Bernie (14:46)
Does that kind of fit into the rose colored glasses or the beauties in the eye of the beholder scenario? In which case, may look beautiful now, but careful what you wish for.
Joseph (14:55)
Absolutely. Again, again, my role is to look behind the surface. And you mentioned interrogation early on. The best interrogators will tell you it's like. As outsiders, we have this image, you know, we've watched movies, we've watched crime shows and interrogations about threat and violence and throwing people against the wall and all of that. And the best interrogators will tell you that doesn't work.
It's all about rapport. It's all about making people feel at ease.
And on occasion, it's lulling them into a false sense of security.
Bernie (15:25)
How much prep time do you need with the interviewers? Like if you haven't worked with the company before, typically, how much time do you need to go, okay, guys, aside from me understanding your work culture, this is how this should play out, or this is how it should roll out, I should say. Is that like, you know, it's an hour session or is that like a little longer or are some people pretty, because they hired you?
Right? Because they recognize that this is a need. So how long does it take them to? OK, I'm on the same page.
Joseph (15:55)
Usually it's pretty short, it's just a matter of probably at most a couple of hours. Whoever's brought me into the company will then introduce me to the panel. So we will have that initial discussion beforehand. As part of my prep before I meet the panel, I will ask to be shown photographs, facial photos of who they are, so I will get an insight into their personality, etc. And from that I will typically then have specific questions for the panel.
but will also be looking at the history in terms of who they've hired before and what hasn't worked and what their concerns are.
and that in itself will give me insights into the construction of the panel.
Bernie (16:34)
So in the process when you're doing the interview with somebody, what are the nonverbal signs that are flags for you, either yay or nay, when you're talking to a candidate?
Joseph (16:43)
Well, first thing, first part of the interview is just setting people at ease. It's just having a just having general chit chat because and whether that's online or in person, because you want to see how they respond when there's nothing at stake and then you're looking for deviations. And there are obvious things that that would be immediate to anybody if their blink rate increases, if the blink rate suddenly becomes quite rapid, that tells you they're under stress in the moment about whatever is under discussion right now. If they start, if they start
chewing their lip, they're uncertain. There are a couple of very obvious ones. When I worked as a therapist, this joint here, the TMJ, the temporal mandibular joint, is one of the most powerful joint in the body. And it's a pivotal area for tension. And I would notice if that suddenly becomes tense and it will often be reflected in the voice becoming a little bit tighter. And I would notice that. So that tells me people are holding tension.
and it's not unusual to see that happening in the course of an interview. So these are hotspots for me. It doesn't tell me that somebody is necessarily being deceptive, but there's something that needs to be explored and then it's okay, what's the best way to explore it? And usually I won't jump on it straight away. It's best to notice it and then let the conversation flow and then come back to it. And that's where I do my Lieutenant Colombo bit.
You know, you mentioned the X, I'm not sure I got it. Could you take me through that again? Yeah. And it's listening for, do they answer it in exactly the same way, using exactly the same words, in which case, you know that particular answer is rehearsed.
or if it's very similar, you probe deeper. And there are ways to get information out of people without asking questions.
which is a vital skill at that level.
Bernie (18:26)
So this sounds like, I'm just kind of noticing that we're tracking our conversation. I guess this goes to the next piece of behavioral negotiation skills. Right? So what is that? And is that part of it? Is there a bit more? And double, double entendre here, because one is to observe and the other one is the strategy of what you're observing and what to do next with what you're picking up, right? Because it's not a matter of, the light's on, as opposed to lights on, start moving.
Joseph (18:51)
Yeah, so many people get even, I've seen so many examples, even really highly experienced business people, some really highly successful business people, they get caught up in the technicalities of the deal, whatever the deal may be, and the finances and the return on investment and all of those details, but they forget that they're negotiating with people. And it's so often that personal connection.
that gets the deal across the table. And whether you've established a relationship with them, will vary according to culture, how important the relationship is. But even if we're just talking purely in Western cultures, it's often that personal connection that seals it. And can you read the person? What insights do you have into the person, regardless of what their role is, whether they're CEO, CFOs,
CPO, whatever it might be. How well do you understand the person? And there's one particular story I love from very, very high level. It goes back to the Camp David negotiations with President Jimmy Carter, Menachem Begin, and worse than that, the Prime Minister of Israel and the President of Egypt at the time. And the negotiations have been going on for a long time.
And Carter arranged for them to come to Camp David because it was neutral territory, etc. And the US was seen as the power broker. But after several sessions, was close to breaking down. And Bagan basically said, enough, I'm out of here. And he was going to leave pretty much the next day. And Carter got photos of Bagan's grandchildren.
And he wrote their names above each one of them. And he went over to see Bagan by himself and gave him the photo. And Bagan became really emotional. And he was so moved at Carter seeing the personal dimension in him that it brought him back to the table.
It's something you wouldn't have expected, particularly if you knew about Begin's background, because he was like he was a fiery character. He was the leader of one of what the British had, you know, named as a terrorist gang before the foundation of the state of Israel. So this was not a man who was given to strong displays of emotion like that. But Carter just got it right.
Bernie (21:01)
Wow.
So we've touched on the politics of life. We've touched on negotiations. In the business world, you can't have people that have had a, like Megan, you could have had like a really strong background. So usually when you're involving with finances, people that come in, it's not a theology issue.
It's a money issue, which is the other theology, I guess, for some people. One thing overall, all things is my coin. How do you manage when you're dealing with investors or even building partnerships or even joint ventures? Because you might need you, the business person might need that in the moment. This is going to be a win.
But how do know that it's going to be a long-term gain as opposed to that was unfortunate? Wrong choice. How do you discern that?
Joseph (21:53)
Yeah, that's me working with my clients very, very closely. I have to be very clear about what their goals are, what their needs are. And in negotiation terms, we talk about BATNA and OUATNA, best alternative to a negotiated agreement, the worst alternative. And we have to be clear about what that would entail. And how clear is their vision for this? How important is this to them?
And once that's established and once we're really clear on that, then it's easier to proceed because there's certainly going to meet a mix of people in a negotiation, whether it's, you know, whether it's mergers, whether it's investment, et cetera. And you're going to get, you will get some people who are absolutely hard-nosed and it's just about the money. And you will get others who are a lot more flexible. So it's recognizing who exactly you're dealing with.
And in some cases, you've got to be very direct and very forceful. And you've got to be willing to adapt your behavior style. Like I'm naturally pretty laid back and pretty soft spoken. But I was married to a German for 20 years, so I can be very direct. I can be very in your face if need be. And it's...
And it's not seeing it's one of one of the key things I've been paying a lot of attention to is the whole thing of identity. If we see ourselves as just this, whatever this may be, we're limiting ourselves. We have to be flexible in our attitudes and our behavior, not our values. But certainly our behavior and how we communicate on occasion, because sometimes it's appropriate to be very soft spoken and sometimes it's appropriate to say, no, this is how it is. This is what's happening. This is the deal. And you've got to be willing to.
going to adapt like that.
Bernie (23:26)
So if urgency is the issue, is it better to hire the negotiator, the hired gun, so to speak, as opposed to long term? I'm thinking, let's say, even when you're dating, you're looking to partner with somebody for the rest of your life, with the hope of the rest of your life.
Is that something slow and easy, goes better and gives you time to absorb everything? Or is it if the matter is urgent, hopefully no one has to marry urgently because then that's something I follow there. Unless of course everybody's extremely hot inside.
What's the best approach? is is depending on how long-term the impact is and the value. And I'm not talking just dollars, right? You're getting married to somebody or you're going to work with somebody, even a partner in business, you know, that'll have a longer range plans. How do you kind of figure out, okay, like the person, but now how do I manage the depth of the relationship?
Joseph (24:30)
Yeah, you need to be willing and able to ask questions and again to elicit information from people. it's like you mentioned dating and we can so easily get caught up in, know, rose-colored, you know, the idea of rose-colored glasses and it's all romantic and that's lovely. Of course it is, but I tell people a date is an interview and it may sound terribly clinical.
But if you're looking for a serious relationship, you have to be calm, you have to be clear, and you have to know how to read the people, read the signs, and there are ways to do it. I'm not just thinking in terms of reading the face and body language. When I'm working with women in that kind of scenario, I will give them questions to ask, I will give them strategies to help uncover who the person really is. I will give them very clear advice.
so that there are ways to uncover the real character, the real intention, the real motivation of the guy. And he can apply a lot of those tactics or strategies across the board in business as well.
Bernie (25:29)
Kind of a segue question here. If you're running into a person and they have a, their process is flawed. In other words, you know, male or female, doesn't matter. They keep making the wrong choice over and over again. Is there, is there a way to kind of reset the whole thing so they don't rinse and repeat continuously as, know, you know, whether it's a, whether it's a bad mate, a bad business partner, or just bad choices.
Is there a way to help reset that or help them kind of, I'm not trying to say cure, but.
Just retrain them, I guess.
Joseph (26:02)
Yeah, they will typically need to be retrained and whether I have worked with a number of people in that scenario, but whether I'm the best person will vary depending on the individual and where they're really coming from. Because some people are coming from, it may not be apparent on the surface, but some people are coming from such trauma in their background that it's completely skewed their judgment.
And they're wearing not just a mask, but mask upon mask upon mask to cover up their insecurity. So in some cases, I would work alongside, say it might be a psychologist or somebody of that ilk to provide a more as aware, more complete, tempted to use the word rebranding, but in effect it is.
Bernie (26:43)
If someone's coming along and a leader is doing an interview or having a chat, even with people that they've hired and they know them, maybe not know them intimately well, because at a certain point in time, you can't know everything about every person you can guess. And the more years you're exposed to someone, you'll get snippets of the reality. The mask, the veil has been dropped in that instance, and you have an epiphany.
What are the quick signals leaders should be looking for when they're engaging? Whether they're talking to an employee and going, I think this person's pulling the wool over my eyes versus this person's pulling the wool over my eyes, but no harm, no foul. It's just like two hands in the cookie jar,
Joseph (27:27)
Yeah, again, that will vary. I've come across so many people in leadership roles who are not leaders, unfortunately. So it's how clear you are as a leader. What are your priorities? What's important? What's important here? How significant is this situation? If somebody's pulling the wool over your eyes or worse. Do you need to bring in the legal department or how serious is this?
How clear are you about the facts? And like there's a really good friend of mine in Kansas, we're working on a project together. His background is in corporate investigation. So like he's so versed in dealing with that. And again, so much of that comes back to rapport, establishing rapport with the person and getting them to reveal what's really happened and to really open up.
And then in some cases it's.
some cases they may have been suspected of something, but it may not have actually been them or it may have been a genuine mistake. And you have to be very clear about that. And in some cases then some people, they just put their hands up and they've just, it's just been completely out of character and it's maybe not that serious. So you may decide to give them a second chance, but in some cases, sorry, it's...
We just can't take this any further. You've got to leave. So it depends on the circumstances. But if you're the leader, you've got to be very, very clear about what your priorities are, what's important, and then what are next steps.
Bernie (28:52)
You're fine that, and I get it when you, a one-to-one communication interviewing somebody, it's there you go. Someone's dating. There you go. It's, it's, it's like a to B connection, but in a larger organization, sometimes you have different players and, and some of the players are involved in that circumstance for a little bit, but they all have different motivations. I remember one time in, the land of the corporate universe,
Right. Our facilities department, our purchasing department and our finance department, the finance and purchasing were under the same umbrella. Then you have a medical department, but each of these sectors had their own, not, not desires, but they had their own, needs to be met. Sometimes they were in great conflict with each other. And I'm sitting there like, this is, this is fun. No, cause you know, you're, you're part of the system, but like, no, I don't want to be here. Thanks.
How do you manage when you have a confluence of these conflicting goals? And usually they shouldn't be. They shouldn't be that disparate. But sometimes you can have that when you're dealing with circumstance. if it is multi-layered, almost like 3D chess, how do you sort out, OK, this is kind of what's happening? Because if someone's hired you, they're going, you're the sorting hat. Tell me what's happening here, Harry. What's going on?
Joseph (30:03)
Yeah, I'm not the person to lay down the law. I don't come in with that remit. can advise. And one of the problems that recurs in organization after organization is the issue of communication and lack of clarity. And it so often comes from the leader or leaders, whether they've communicated with clarity, whether they've chosen the right people, whether the communication is
clear on an ongoing basis. It's like, are you doing annual assessments? Or are you keeping people briefed on a regular basis? How often the team leads meet?
who's sitting, as it were, on top of the team leads? Is anybody? So that they're not being territorial, they're not being, you know, they're not coming from their own silos and, you know, as it were, firing missiles at each other. So there's a whole series of questions there, but I do work with teams, I do work with organizations that help with communication. And it can be complicated by the fact that we're now dealing with multicultural organizations, where people are coming from so many different cultural backgrounds.
And the fact that we may technically be speaking the same language, like we're speaking English here, but the fact that we're technically speaking the same language does not mean we're speaking the same language. And that's a mistake people often make.
Bernie (31:16)
Wow. You touched on something multicultural. So if you're dealing with a company that's international, is that no different than someone local to you, except that there might be another language in play? And then does that add another layer of complexity to what you have to do?
Joseph (31:33)
Absolutely, does. Yeah. Yeah. Because you have to know, you have to be informed about the cultures you're dealing with. What's there known? Like English is regarded as the international language of business. So there is an expectation that people will speak English. But if you're coming from a background where the only language you speak is English, your toolkit is relatively limited. You may have like a screwdriver and a hammer.
but you may need other tools. And so what do you understand about the other culture? If you're operating in their culture, if you're meeting them in their place, you need to prepare in terms of what are their cultural norms in terms of behavior. Like I'm networking with more people in the Middle East of late. And if you're dealing with Arabic cultures and you're looking to engage them in a deal,
You've got to be very respectful. You've got to be focused on relationship first, rather than the technicalities and rather than pushing. And if you're dealing with people in the Far East, China, Japan, so much of that is based on relationship. It's about demonstrating respect. It's taking time. Like I had the great good fortune many years ago of meeting the late Tony Pazan, who is the founder of mind mapping and
Tony was a wonderful raconteur, lovely gentleman, wonderful raconteur anyway, but he talked about his first visit to China and where he talked about the etiquette of sharing business cards. Like in the West here, if somebody gives you a business card, you look at it, you maybe comment on something and then you put it in your pocket. In the West or in the East, if you did that in China or Japan, you've insulted them.
And the conversation may continue, but the door is closed. So if you're over there, you give the business card with two hands, you receive it with two hands, then you look at it and you make admiring noises. When you've finished making admiring noises, you put it down in front of you and every so often you look at it and make more admiring noises. You did not put it away.
And if you deviate from that, like I said, the conversation may continue, but you've lost the deal before there's any significant discussion happening.
Bernie (33:39)
That's fascinating. That is really fascinating. Do we, I mean, we talked about the Far East and the Middle East. Do you find that there's similar variations in for the Africa, South America, or the even the northern regions? I mean, I'm talking about the indigenous cultures in North America or in Europe, in fact, you know, the further, you know, the Laplanders, so to speak.
Do they also have those type of kind of be mindful of ways of expressing yourself?
Joseph (34:10)
I've less experience in dealing with indigenous cultures and I'm only starting to make relationships in different parts of Africa. But to suggest that, Africa is so vast. Africa, I can't remember how many countries are in Africa. It's a massive, massive continent. And there are so many different cultures and even in one country, there may be several cultures. So again, it's the old Benjamin Franklin thing, fail to prepare, prepare to fail.
You have to inform yourself before you go in there. Who exactly you're dealing with, what is their background, what's their culture? What are they likely to be looking for and what's important to them? Otherwise, you're setting yourself up for failure and at the very least you're making much harder work of it.
Bernie (34:52)
There is a lady who was involved in a project and it was First Nations folks here in the province of Ontario. And we were going to approach them and she said, this is the etiquette. It's always first meet with the elders.
maybe even leave something, a token behind, know, appreciation for their time and don't expect an immediate result. And it could vary because this person knew enough culturally for the different locations.
Quick question, what's the biggest tell people think they can hide?
Joseph (35:23)
one of them is a smile. A friend of mine in Ireland, he's Ireland's leading headshot photographer, he often talks about the bridesmaid smile.
Bernie (35:29)
Ha ha.
Joseph (35:30)
The bridesmaids off to the side and she's smiling with her mouth, but her eyes are saying something very different. So we talk like in body language, you talk about the Duchenne smile, which is the full smile where the eyes are lighting up as well. So when you're seeing somebody smile, is it just the mouth or are the eyes engaged and are the eyes lighting up?
And people so often give the social smile. You'll so often say it with politicians, celebrities, it's just the mouth. And people think because they're smiling with their mouth that they're conveying that they're happy to meet you. But if the eyes are not sparkling, it's transactional for whatever reason.
Bernie (36:06)
I guess you must have fun watching the news when someone's expressing, know, whatever country they're in, whatever their position is in, it must provide you some great insight to what's going on behind the scenes then.
Joseph (36:18)
Yeah, one exercise I tend to recommend to students is to watch politicians being interviewed, particularly where they're apparently being emotive about the topic, and watch it with the sound on and then rewind it and watch it with the sound off and ask yourself if what you're now viewing is congruent with what you heard. And very often it's not.
Bernie (36:38)
I like that one. Wow, that's pretty, I like that. You know what, Joseph, thank you so much. We're nearing the end of our time here. there's so many different rabbit holes. So I apologize if we kind of took us off a little segues here, because that's interesting. it's like, know, my internal chipmunk or squirrel is going, there, get that one. If someone wants to reach you, how do they get hold of you? And what areas do you serve?
I'm gathering Middle East and the Far East and North America, so I guess you're global? Would that be fair enough to say?
Joseph (37:10)
Yeah, absolutely. I'm global. I'm happy to work with people from anywhere. And I love learning. I love learning languages. I speak German. I speak a little bit of French. I'm learning Italian. I love learning languages, meeting people from different cultures. In fact, most of my friends are now non-Irish anyway. So I love to engage. And I'm always happy to learn more and to embrace new learning because I'm endlessly curious.
So I'm definitely global and the best way to contact me is on LinkedIn. It's where I'm most active.
Bernie (37:38)
That's perfect. So Joseph McQuire, thank you so much. And you the Knack 4 Business listeners. Thank you too. So as you can tell, Joseph has quite the background. he's been in the holistic medicine side of it. He's been in the interviewing side of it. And he's got a wide expanse of knowledge. And if you're looking to hire people, if you're looking to work with people,
Maybe you need a little bit more training so you can get a better understanding for engagement. Or you're about to do a massive step, you're going to do a merger or get funding from somebody. Joseph is the man to reach out to.