Psychiatrist Dr. Jackie Kinley shows leaders why burnout is a systems problem, not a personal one; and how to build mental fitness before it hits.
GROWTH PILLAR: Health & Wellness
WHO THIS IS FOR: SMB owners / Solopreneurs / Corporate escapees / Leaders building systems
WHAT THEY'LL GAIN: A working definition of mental fitness, a leadership lens on burnout, and practical steps to protect performance and people.
Burnout isn't a personal failing. It's what happens when the system around a person breaks down.
Dr. Jackie Kinley, psychiatrist and founder of AIR Institutes, joins Bernie Franzgrote and cohost Wayne Pratt to challenge the old idea that mental health is something to fix in the individual. Instead, she makes the case for mental fitness — a skills-based approach built on behavior, relationships, and daily habits that helps leaders and teams perform under pressure without burning out.
In this conversation, Dr. Kinley covers:
Connect with Dr. Jackie Kinley: air-institutes.com | LinkedIn | AIR Institutes company page | YouTube
Audience bonus: get your free Resilience Snapshot (the FRQ12) at air-institutes.com.
— PARTNERS ON THIS EPISODE —
Next Steps:
Bernie (00:22)
So, from audience perspective, why are you carrying all this pressure and still feeling like you are failing? Well, our guest will unpack why mental health isn't a personal weakness or label to manage, but a leadership and system design issue. She'll explain how mental fitness built through behavior, relationships and daily skills
Helps founders, leaders And teams perform under pressure without burning out. And how organizations can design environments that support resilience instead of quietly breaking people down. If you're a business owner, leader or professional feeling stretched thin, stay with this conversation. Listen in to learn how to build mental fitness before burnout hits.
and how to lead in a way that protects performance and people. Our guest today is Dr. Jackie Kinley from Air Institutes. She's a psychiatrist, resilient strategist, and the founder and CEO of Atlantic Institute of Resilience, also known as Air Institutes.
With decades of experience at the intersection of mental health, behavior science, leadership, and system designs, she challenges the traditional problem-focused approach to mental health and replaces it with a proactive, skills-based model she calls mental fitness. Her work focuses on behavior, relationships, and self-awareness, rather than labels or pathology, helping individuals, leaders, and organizations build their psychological strength, perform under pressure, adapt to change,
and sustained results over time. At AIR, she introduces a people and performance operating system. Most business education skips. Driven by clear and bold mission to transform how we promote mental health by building it, not just creating it. Dr. Jackie, an absolute pleasure having you here today. Welcome.
And give a favorite quote or saying
Dr. Jackie (02:03)
you know what, I'll kick it off with one that I like. It's not about feeling better, getting better at feeling. And that's kind of related to mental fitness. So I'm sure we'll get into that, but I think that's really important, right? Cause we're talking about people, leaders and how they support people and helping people get, you know, more mentally fit. There's building emotional intelligence and a lot of other things.
Dr. Jackie (02:05)
I like it better, it's about feel.
We're gonna
people.
psychologically stronger.
Dr. Jackie (02:28)
So oftentimes we use that with illness. So yeah, it's about getting better at feeling, not feeling bad.
Dr. Jackie (02:29)
We can we confuse with treating this.
Bernie (02:36)
So do you have any business taglines you work with?
Dr. Jackie (02:39)
Business Tech.
Dr. Jackie (02:40)
Well,
I often say, know, birth is not a personal thing.
Dr. Jackie (02:41)
that burnout is failure.
It's a failure of leadership and system.
Dr. Jackie (02:47)
and end.
Right. So I think it's an important. People often blame. When they don't realize. The. And and organization tech people. Right.
Dr. Jackie (02:52)
differentiation, burnout on an individual, what the role of leader is in creating systems.
Bernie (03:04)
So.
Bernie (03:04)
What drove your psychiatrist, which means your medical doctor, as opposed to a psychologist, but know, kind of parallel paths, what brought you into the psychiatric field?
Dr. Jackie (03:14)
Well, it's an interesting question. think a lot of, the things, in my life, I had obviously, I I come from a line of physicians sort of, right, and sort of hands on kind of background. And, so, so enamored with, you for it. But I
Dr. Jackie (03:17)
Diverged.
Right? logical lot of surgeons.
So was really medicine, sort of groomed. I
operated or I worked as a ER physician.
Dr. Jackie (03:35)
physician
and a family physician and I started to see that a lot of the ailments that
Dr. Jackie (03:37)
started to see.
sort
of befell people, ⁓ associated mindsets and lifestyles, that there were choices.
Dr. Jackie (03:47)
were upended with the child's and so the child's. And so instead of children,
I wanted to go upstream and that really required me to understand people, understand what motivates
Dr. Jackie (04:03)
fated
people, what drove people, their behaviors, to them, to make better choices. So it was a little bit of a diversion into ⁓ mainstream to think of biological medicine really
Dr. Jackie (04:05)
and then how to support them and to become their better self.
from medicine or what I like to think
of as psychological understanding, not just
Dr. Jackie (04:19)
psychological, the mind, the
body.
Bernie (04:25)
It's interesting and I know there's a world of information out there because, a, the mental health of the person. And of course, people work in businesses. It's not, it's not Ottomans or robots. So what, what brought you into the focus, into the space of business and leadership?
Again, from being an ER physician, it's ta-da, I'm here, I'm presenting with an issue as opposed to here's a workplace where you have thousand people.
Dr. Jackie (04:52)
Well, think, you know, getting to business with. I think getting out of.
Dr. Jackie (04:56)
sort of the last step. The first step was
sort of a biological sort
Dr. Jackie (05:01)
know, fatalistic kind of framework and starting to understand, right, that people agency and autonomy and they had choice and they, they, and they had more control than they thought they did. So that sort of, you know, I was able to kind of step out of, you know, mainstream psychiatry, like to think of myself, now, I don't see things as fatalistic, right? mean, I'm sure
Dr. Jackie (05:10)
over their mental health.
outside
as a reformed psychiatrist.
I see potential
in people. The internal pharmacy.
Dr. Jackie (05:26)
and I see
that we don't necessarily have to rely on external pharmacy, that people have the capacity to… ⁓ Right. And so, that brought me into
Dr. Jackie (05:32)
people.
improve themselves to
the world of resilience, right? So how do we, then people, support them and muscle again with practice and with coaching.
Dr. Jackie (05:42)
resilience, strength, and how do we support them to build their mental fitness? The idea that your brain's like a muscle, any other muscle we can develop it, all
kinds of things. But then when I started initially, it's interesting, Brittany, initially I had to go out and help a student. I of training at the university hospital I'm at, and I was a staff member of physicians that were
Dr. Jackie (05:55)
into the world. initially I just wanted to I was was direct
downed by the number of positions
off work because of stress.
Dr. Jackie (06:11)
And I was like, my goodness, you know, they're coming into the and they have the resources.
Dr. Jackie (06:13)
the workplace, there's a lot of demand
to be able to meet those psychologically. Much more focused on the resource.
Dr. Jackie (06:19)
demands.
side of things.
Dr. Jackie (06:27)
the
individual. started the
Dr. Jackie (06:28)
Resilience
training, started doing mental fitness training with people very much focused on
Dr. Jackie (06:32)
the
individual but what I learned very quickly. Business world.
Dr. Jackie (06:35)
when I stepped into the business world
was that there are lot of demands at sometimes saying, you just need to suck it up, and stuff, that's actually really not helpful. It actually can result to injury. Because some of the demands at work are actually harmful. There are social hazards in
Dr. Jackie (06:40)
lot of ma- work.
S O N
or you just need to pull up your s- tough it out like I did.
And it actually ends right because.
have psycho-counseling, the
Dr. Jackie (07:01)
workplace,
Dr. Jackie (07:03)
leader's role is to make sure organizations perform, right? That they're
Dr. Jackie (07:07)
that organize
responsible
for outcomes. And part of that outcome is managing financial risk, processes, all kinds of things. But also, it's over the management of people because your people are resources. And so, leaders in
Dr. Jackie (07:19)
We're seeing
People are your resources.
play a role
creating systems that support and develop their people so that they to meet the demands of the world.
Dr. Jackie (07:31)
they can run.
So there was a bit of a shift from the individual and ⁓ who leads and ultimately helps to design and develop and make sure that are effective.
Dr. Jackie (07:36)
to the system, the leader as the one needs.
those systems are actively executed.
Bernie (07:50)
Interesting as you were describing that. Well, no, having worked in the healthcare industry myself for 36 years and having gone through the, there's certain compliance tests or ⁓ testing you have to go through training. If you see electricity and water, don't join the two or how to use a fire extinguisher. Don't drink the stuff, don't put it on your skin. It's the WMIS training.
Bernie (08:02)
Hmm.
Dr. Jackie (08:11)
That's exactly right.
Bernie (08:14)
Is there, it's a two pronged question, is there something that the usually typically, and we're talking about the Canadian models right now, whether it's on the East Coast or here in Ontario or even out West, was there a compliance issue here's the toxin material that where WHIMIS is happening. Is there something that identifies that for the mental health element?
Dr. Jackie (08:35)
Is that a plant question? don't know if you know, Bernie, but it's so interesting. ⁓
Dr. Jackie (08:36)
Is that a- Realized this-
shifted
to psychosocial hazards, right? This idea that there are behaviors of psychosocial hazards, right?
Dr. Jackie (08:46)
are hazards and people can
become hazardous. And not out of conscious intention, hopefully. I always assume good intent. But the answer to your question is yes.
Dr. Jackie (09:00)
just learned a
course called Wibis, which is the equivalent of Wibis is hazardous materials. Wibis is workplace hazardous behavior. application system system because either be system at needs to be to be a
Dr. Jackie (09:03)
⁓ of women's but where's
has identified them. And I come back to the word. It needs to be automatic. There are needs to awareness
and education and skills in order to
Dr. Jackie (09:28)
Skip.
to ensure that
we properly address workplace hazards, including how to speak if your answer to your question is yes. With regards to compliance, really interesting.
Dr. Jackie (09:34)
and manage.
has or doesn't behave. So the answer to this now there is. And that's a
question because up until now, no, there has not been compliance. there is interest because in Canada, have something called the Mental Health Commission of Canada. People might have heard about it and they have a national standard. 13, you know, factories work.
And it's a little bit motherhood. The expectations tell you kind what expectations
Dr. Jackie (10:06)
These are the things, these are. Is infected
of you, but it doesn't tell you how to do it.
Dr. Jackie (10:12)
Right? And so when there's going to be compliance issues, companies are going to be struggling. Organizations are going to struggle because it's, you know, as I say, it's kind of common sense, you know, create a health care, you know, you know, manage all of these things. But ⁓ how do you optimize that?
Dr. Jackie (10:15)
issue.
culture.
workloads.
operational, what
does that look like? And really that's what the WBIS course is designed to address is how
Dr. Jackie (10:33)
to
recognize hazards, how do I recognize at an individual level, at a team level, and at a level, right? Because hazards, you know, aren't just on the front line. They can be up in the C-suite. And so it's implementing, right, know, proper interventions and, you know, always assuming no matter
Dr. Jackie (10:38)
behaviors, well level at managerial leadership level.
Right. Cognizing those things.
intervention.
intent, right? It's a developmental, why sustain healthy behavior, the why evaluate it, which is what we call the rise, the rise.
Dr. Jackie (11:03)
model and then how to, you know, know, years and healthy and, what are the controls that I need to put in place and how to
operating
system. So resilient organization.
Dr. Jackie (11:18)
rise above the rest
because they have these operating systems where they
Dr. Jackie (11:21)
place. They
identify psychosocial hazards, they know how to manage them, and they get out front of them.
Dr. Jackie (11:26)
where they develop and support their people.
Dr. Jackie (11:28)
they can perform well.
Bernie (11:29)
So is that more occupational health or human resources cited or?
Dr. Jackie (11:33)
Well, this is such
Dr. Jackie (11:34)
of fascinating question because I think these organizations are siloed and the reality is
Dr. Jackie (11:38)
functions and what they have been saying. reality is resilience really sits at the end, really
is about behavioral health. And behavioral health relates not only to mental health but safety and performance.
Dr. Jackie (11:49)
It's not.
So it it it it sits in the middle of, you know, Right. You know, because the the more.
Dr. Jackie (11:56)
in the middle of HR, or mental or mentally fit, just like physical fitness, or mentally fit, you are,
you know, the less likely you are if you go out and...
Dr. Jackie (12:08)
run a mile to strain your ankle.
Dr. Jackie (12:10)
The more psychologically
prepared you are for the work, the more ready you are, the less likely you are.
Dr. Jackie (12:17)
to be strained
or injured. ⁓
Dr. Jackie (12:24)
It really is
the linchpin in my mind, right? It sort of pulls things together.
Dr. Jackie (12:29)
in a unified way where things have been.
Dr. Jackie (12:31)
very separate and siloed.
Bernie (12:34)
Wow.
Dr. Jackie (12:35)
That's a mouthful.
Dr. Jackie (12:36)
there you go! ⁓ no!
Bernie (12:37)
And it's interesting because I've seen the system in play and the goal is always to have ⁓ good outcomes. And goodness knows there's a lot of institutions out there that have gone, well, let's buy this platform. usually, there's everything from Disney, apparently, to there's one out of Florida that is named ⁓ Studer is another one, right? It's all about making that culture and just it's a whole process.
Dr. Jackie (12:59)
Okay?
Bernie (13:04)
And yeah, it's usually a purchase. Yes, go ahead.
Dr. Jackie (13:07)
Well, I was just going to say, you know, I think these are really...
Dr. Jackie (13:10)
really great effort. And
all of these are necessary, but often
Dr. Jackie (13:14)
in and of themselves. And I think it really comes by understanding and I think that's where I've been in a very
Dr. Jackie (13:15)
They're insufficient.
back to having a unified theory.
fortunate position where I have
Dr. Jackie (13:28)
or at the interface between mental health, performance, and now, and so I've been kind of in the middle of all of it.
Dr. Jackie (13:34)
Leadership is.
So it's a of a privileged position where I've been able to see the gap. ⁓
Dr. Jackie (13:43)
And this is
what happens in organizations, right? All of a sudden, you know, you have an individual, you know, who you've brought on board, they're doing pretty well, and all of sudden, you you're not And you don't know what it is, right? You know, oh, I'm kind of burning out, I'm not feeling good, I'm struggling. And up to point, you know, there's been a of who who who
Dr. Jackie (13:48)
You have
and their performance starts to lag.
I'm I'm stressed, until this point. No way to identify.
what's actually misbehaving behavior like what are they doing or not doing to protect them. And so we really sit in the room and help to tease that part so that suddenly somebody starts to break up
Dr. Jackie (14:08)
you know, in terms of
doing, right, to detect and support themselves and what demands are being placed in middle of that where we have a pandemic. When all of us have let burnout,
instead of them showing up at HR with a sick note, right, and then all of a sudden they're in that black box. And best of luck when you get into the mental health system, I often say if you weren't
Dr. Jackie (14:35)
of life.
crazy
before you got into it, you'll be crazy when you get there, because it is a
Dr. Jackie (14:41)
crazy making. It's designed if you're ill, but I'll tell you, you know, it's a system
to navigate. It medicalizes things because it's designed to diagnose illness. It's not designed to promote health and performance. That's not what it does. Right. So you either get somebody coming in with a sick note,
Dr. Jackie (14:49)
design and tree.
for me.
Or,
Dr. Jackie (15:00)
Forman managing
them, right? Then all of a sudden they're in H.
Dr. Jackie (15:04)
office and your performance managing them. Of those two, there's a development. There's a development, which is okay. What are the resources psychologically that this individual has? That's that. That's how we act. Most of these in the first place was they. We have a.
Dr. Jackie (15:06)
And in the middle of opportunity. Opportunity.
And we can assess actually entered businesses. They were like, well, how do you know? we're like, resilience,
it's functional. How do you respond to stress? What do you do? Right?
Dr. Jackie (15:28)
It was this,
what do you do? It's a, it's a skill set. And we can set capacity.
Dr. Jackie (15:32)
and you learn it, right? So, we assess individual's current and
then we help and the assessment in and of itself. I'm not an assessment, you know, I guess this one of the things I don't like about these personality tests and these different tests you go in and I'm a pink or I'm a
Dr. Jackie (15:43)
Leave, gal.
or
blue or I'm a purple whatever.
Dr. Jackie (15:51)
I don't think that way. I think that, we all have a little bit of pink, we all have a little bit blue, we all have little bit of this and that, and we just want more. We can get it. So the assessment actually maps onto
Dr. Jackie (15:57)
a little bit of
more of what we need.
onto
a curriculum pro resilience inside out training.
Dr. Jackie (16:09)
program.
And we have a brain gym. It's asynchronous. People can get on and can do it. can microcode. know, know, micro, not 50 minutes, like that with somebody. Like when you go to the gym, gym and you know, you, your trainer and you spend 60 minutes talking to your trainer and you don't touch a
Dr. Jackie (16:14)
digital platform, people, and they get a micro coach and individuals.
And this is important learning, coaching, a 50 minute session where you sit around and chit chat.
If you go to the gym, you meet.
wait.
Good luck.
Dr. Jackie (16:34)
Right. And a lot of times, you know, you know, 45, 50 minutes, you're catching up, you're talking and out you go and nothing's changed. You might feel better. You know, had an opportunity to but fortify you haven't. And this is what mental training is. It will set and it may be onto years that I'm when I'm. Pull in that it's.
Dr. Jackie (16:37)
people go.
Go.
Could you?
to feel the support and the but ultimately you haven't developed any new skills. What are the skills that I need maps on to what are the behaviors I need to do under stress and we coach people.
Applied coaching skills are in the brain gym is applying the
Dr. Jackie (17:05)
And then the coaching
in your life, micro coaching, 20 minutes, busy, time's valuable. Leaders don't want to be wasting a lot of money on clips. And you know, when you can combine technology and leverage that, you know, with micro support, micro learning, micro support, that's flexible, accessible, you know, it just makes all the difference.
Dr. Jackie (17:08)
People are
services which are incredibly expensive.
It's affordable. just makes the difference,
right?
Bernie (17:30)
So you've observed this, have a process to help get that fitness going. And you've put it under something that I think is really kind of a very cool name called AIR, or that's an acronym, for Atlantic Institute of Resilience.
Bernie (17:45)
Mm-hmm, so
Dr. Jackie (17:46)
Air is ⁓
Dr. Jackie (17:46)
And everyone needs air, Bernie.
Bernie (17:50)
Apparently.
Yeah, no. Yes, it is. I think it's a fantastic use of the many concepts. But what? How did the head of this gem come to fruition? Like you saw you saw the issue. And from a business perspective, what made you say, well, you know, if I take this, this, this and this and put it together in a box of sorts or layers, you have an app. Well, we'll get into that a little bit later on.
And you have like, and now you know, people are going, well, how do you know that works? You know, know, I have, have another, another colleague of mine, he does mindfulness training and he was talking, he was talking to people that were in the enforcement industry and they're more, they're older. I'm looking at him and going, I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, oh my, all my imagery, all my memories of those folk. They'd be looking at him, but yeah, you know, pound salt buddy.
Dr. Jackie (18:29)
you
Dr. Jackie (18:29)
Thank
Bernie (18:45)
And he flipped it around and he used the concept to listen, do you want to have a heart attack? No. Okay. Well, let's work this through. Right. that was his point of proof. What do you use for point of proof to convince people? Listen, this is all the stuff that's coming in and this is where you'll gain first, you people. then, cause eventually there's going to be someone for finance. going, what's my ROI? They never run away. Those folks.
Dr. Jackie (18:52)
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
No, but I- and I re-
Dr. Jackie (19:10)
like
that question because I think that you need different proof of concept for different people. I mean, relevant to different people, right? So, probably, know, first started, it was really just the results, like the outcomes with people.
Dr. Jackie (19:13)
people because different things are going to be relevant for people. I think proof is in the pudding. mean, when we've, you
Now, I don't know if you're
– but I actually come from that medical background. My background was running a trauma program at the hospital, right? And I still run a trauma program, complex trauma. But out of that, you know, we have
Dr. Jackie (19:31)
followers, don't know, our listeners? No.
But we had
to research our results.
Dr. Jackie (19:48)
right? And so we started working and during and after, know, there
Dr. Jackie (19:51)
with people measure right before and their
psychological strength their resilience just with that individual outcomes that the decrease birth right the the the decrease in depression and anxiety which are not targets therapy but it's therapeutic boy you're people feel
Dr. Jackie (19:58)
And so at an individual level, measuring those out, the difference in burnout,
It's not a
Right? So, you know, because when people feel better
when they're stronger, again, when they're mentally stronger, they feel Right? And so, at an individual level, it's often to make it relevant to individuals. They're happy for it. know, nobody's going to go to the gym if they don't think they need the gym. So, you you demonstrate the need. Right? And, you know, do you want to be to work? Do you want your
Dr. Jackie (20:21)
Feel better.
individual level.
very easy to in. It has to be a felt need for
Be better at
relationships at home.
Dr. Jackie (20:41)
to
be better? You know, do you want to be have more peace, feel more confident? Absolutely. So point of entry for us is usually assessment.
Dr. Jackie (20:43)
of mind or empowered
with the individual with the...
It's intuitive, it's exceedingly helpful for people to...
Dr. Jackie (20:55)
gives
them ton of insight into, well, that's just my personality. No, it's not. It's your mental habits. I'm right-handed. Could you your right hand? Could you? So it.
Dr. Jackie (20:59)
It's your tendencies.
Yes, you are. use your left hand. Probably. It opens
up for people, a whole world of potential and possibility.
Dr. Jackie (21:11)
that
they didn't know they had. Then, if you're talking to managers and team leaders, one of the things that we noticed is with training, safety went up.
Dr. Jackie (21:20)
civility started to go up at work, cultures got better. Goodness.
Dr. Jackie (21:23)
So people are like, my goodness, right? So then you go in and we've been working with teams,
been able to measure those outcomes, right? Then when people show up, have the capacity to enter into conversation, losing it or walking out of the room, they're
Dr. Jackie (21:30)
People feel better, they shit better. They have capacity to improve.
Dr. Jackie (21:40)
in the
Right. so managed thing. then
Dr. Jackie (21:42)
My goodness, this is a good. At the leadership level, at the table of finance, the scene, straight and sick, and the reduction
Dr. Jackie (21:48)
your team is demonstrating the reduction in and because
Dr. Jackie (21:55)
Disability costs.
Dr. Jackie (21:56)
I got to tell you when somebody goes off on a mental health leave
Dr. Jackie (22:00)
The chances of them coming back to work go from short to long to incredibly incredibly. Like all of a sudden, like a number of disability aims, the majority of
Dr. Jackie (22:02)
When they turn.
low. And the most common claims in
most organizations are mental health claims.
Dr. Jackie (22:15)
I mean, the cost of mental health to organizations is absolutely huge.
Dr. Jackie (22:19)
A lot of them don't measure it. A lot of them don't capture it.
Dr. Jackie (22:21)
If they start to dig into their numbers, it's remarkable. The cost of a coaching program. So this is where we got our foot. ⁓
Dr. Jackie (22:24)
It's it's and
This is where get our
evidence. It's all of a sudden, you know, we did a CanHELT, Janux, you know, kind of nursing home across the, you know, This online with CanHealth, our outcomes are remarkable in terms of the satisfaction, you know, of the program people up and they, and their results. And, and, and, and so looking at the impact that that has on
Dr. Jackie (22:34)
project was large
This is you can find the
were remarkable in terms of the usage.
loved it,
Dr. Jackie (22:57)
potential sick time, actual sick time, baseline disabilities. And those are the things that being able to measure those things with organizations.
Dr. Jackie (22:57)
10, 6, 1,
disability cost, systems that we're building going forward, right?
It's a win.
Bernie (23:08)
There's a
myriad of other questions, a of questions. Now you have a successful model. know you're coming out of the East Coast. You're looking to go right across Canada, North America or global?
Dr. Jackie (23:20)
We would absolutely go global.
Dr. Jackie (23:21)
I
mean, have worked ⁓ in other countries, I've done other work.
Dr. Jackie (23:25)
besides the US, right, obviously. have coach.
Dr. Jackie (23:28)
You know, internationally, right? you know, so, so, now the things,
Dr. Jackie (23:31)
Absolutely.
is because we have the brain, because we're able to leverage the digital platform, we have micro-cores, live but virtual.
Dr. Jackie (23:38)
And because we have and we can do it, access is not a barrier for us.
So we can scale it up.
Dr. Jackie (23:50)
So that's why we pivoted into...
Dr. Jackie (23:53)
requiring and leveraging technology and was pulling us in that direction. I am not a computer person. I'm not a technology person. It's like research, but out of the city, That's the birthplace. I tell you, we had to innovate and it's fun.
Dr. Jackie (23:56)
technology, because the demand for what we were offering, and that look at
necessity.
place of innovation.
We have. We have.
great to see people being able to, it democratizes mental health, right?
Dr. Jackie (24:22)
for access to
right, which is a wonderful thing. it empowers organizations. These are complex times, know, Bernie. The other thing, boy, you put me on, I can talk a long time.
Dr. Jackie (24:32)
or source.
The other-
Dr. Jackie (24:41)
thing I do
add is one of these sort of de facto findings that we didn't expect, which
Dr. Jackie (24:48)
is where the Wibis course was born out of this workplace hazardous behavior course.
We discovered that safety improved.
Dr. Jackie (24:55)
And we were like, hmm? then about psychological safety, what can I say, what can I not say? And there's all this sort of big changes happening, right? With change and all kinds of stuff, people are adapting.
Dr. Jackie (24:57)
Now there's this huge psychological safety at work. Everybody's kind of on eggshells.
Yeah, because there's. Eight is uncertain.
So we were able to sort of in the behavioral health and say
Dr. Jackie (25:14)
Wow, you know, we also sit in safety
space. And so this is and
Dr. Jackie (25:19)
really important.
So it's been rewarding in the sense that not just for the individuals that we coach, managers and leaders that are complex.
Dr. Jackie (25:28)
But for the management, managing these very complex
systems, right? And in a very complex political environment, And so it's just an added bonus that we help them to navigate that. Because it's not, it means understand people.
Dr. Jackie (25:36)
sociop-
bone and to make sense of it. It appears nonsensical, it makes sense when we.
Bernie (25:51)
It almost seems like a nominal effect. If you're resolving one issue, it ripples out, addresses other issues. So a couple of quick questions about the coaching sessions and the training sessions. Is this something like, if I'm training to do a marathon, I know I got to do so much prep work.
My diet's involved, know, whole cascaded things.
What is the effort? Some people are going to go back to past experience. you have to go out of course. It's going to ⁓ be a day off here. The stuff that you talked about earlier. then there's a reminder. Once you got the rhythm of it, though, you know what to do. It's like learning how to use a Mac. I you only used a Windows platform.
Dr. Jackie (26:43)
Yeah,
nice.
Bernie (26:43)
There's
a learning curve, right? And it's like, Oh my gosh, where'd they, why did they put it in the wrong spot? Right. And you know, you're working through that. How do you, how do you get it through and what does that look like? at the end of the day,
Dr. Jackie (26:54)
We make it super simple. you know, it's just a matter of, you know, if an individual wants be coached, right, you know, an individual wants to be coached, it's an online questionnaire assessment, takes 10 to 15 minutes, right? ⁓ One-on-one with
Dr. Jackie (26:55)
Super simple for people.
individual wants to be c-
15.
They meet their
coach virtually for what we call a springboard. It's a third, they go through it and then between eight to 12 coaching sessions. At sessions. we're talking three top, three hours of live coaching ⁓ over a five minutes a day in the brain. That's all just. So.
Dr. Jackie (27:31)
over two to three months block and we say, hey, I'm going to him. Five minutes. It
is not unbelievable.
Dr. Jackie (27:42)
on
And usage is available, which is a surprise for us. People like it. They like it. It's guided. There's sort of a virtual coach takes you in. so,
Dr. Jackie (27:53)
But
in their first coaching session after the assessment, they get all the feedback in their session. In that 20 minutes, they're onboarded. They don't have to go and figure it out on their own. Their coach shows them how to get in, they get on, do that and tell them where to go. It's not like one of these up and run, you figure it out. They say, based on your profile, I want
Dr. Jackie (27:57)
there is.
to the gym.
or they do then they direct
See you later.
you
walk into the gym, it's, oh, there's a bench press here, there's a leg press there.
Dr. Jackie (28:23)
been there.
Well, I don't know which one to use. don't know how to strengthen myself.
Dr. Jackie (28:29)
on the assessment of the conference, the coach, they navigate
you through and it's
Dr. Jackie (28:35)
And they say five minutes a day on this, and 20 minutes. so it's not terms of time and time limit. is not Bernie. We don't want to dependent.
Dr. Jackie (28:37)
This is what you need to do. I'll see you next week for.
not onerous in terms
It's limited. is really important. a creative tendency,
you want to empower people to be custodians of their
Dr. Jackie (28:54)
in their
own health. Like I don't need to talk to the trainer when I go to the gym. Now I know what I need and I know what to do. We want people to do. We want them to know what they need, know how to do it and support them in applying it the first few times and then on their own. It's get them out of the nest, right? Right. Get them out of the nest and because people don't want to be tied down, right?
Dr. Jackie (29:00)
This is what we will do.
They
Bernie (29:15)
Yeah. So...
Bernie (29:16)
Besides
the organization, is this like for a one, two man company or is this like for 10, 15,000 people? What?
Dr. Jackie (29:23)
⁓ We've done organizations, yes, yes. And think about though, I think what's important, as you say, improved concept created kind of an era where we will bring different parts of the organization.
Dr. Jackie (29:23)
We've large.
it. What's important is we've gradually ecosystem do different things for different where
there's different felt needs and different skills required. We do with a leadership team leadership
Dr. Jackie (29:44)
right?
Right? We go in and work with team,
educating on boarding them into the framework. Very different from what we do with Frontline.
Dr. Jackie (29:54)
We can support individuals with a felt need who need.
Dr. Jackie (29:55)
Start.
need more. So they don't end up in the EEP
or they don't end up going off work. But he needs co-op, right? Sometimes it's just awareness and education, right? And can do their own thing. So, ⁓ on our website, know,
Dr. Jackie (30:07)
patient, right? And then people. So this is, but
so there's individual coaching for individuals who are at risk, who need that extra.
Dr. Jackie (30:19)
toward an extra training.
Dr. Jackie (30:21)
We do power hours, is group coaching, where we work. We've had thousands on. We're going to do this skill today.
Dr. Jackie (30:24)
power hours, right? Where you focus in on one skill, whoever
wants to and people just drop in. But then we do master class. And in this operating, this operating system with, you know, Wibis, leaders will implement ⁓ internal champions that we call, ⁓ the controls in place and evaluate
Dr. Jackie (30:32)
classes for leaders and then operating system and with which we hope
We help to internal catalysts to recognize employment.
their success, Workforce, right? So it's sort of an ecological approach.
Dr. Jackie (30:51)
in buying their...
So, so
But, you know, need to have organizations need things and that's really, you know, kind of, you know, mastermind, you know, leading our teams. We come in three ways. We come in, there's an occupational health issue.
Dr. Jackie (31:01)
not everybody coaching different organizations, different part of our.
We'd sort of consult with leadership, typically with organizations.
Dr. Jackie (31:17)
and they have people.
they say, wow, this is great, then we end up in HR and then we end up in leadership. The other way we come in is
Dr. Jackie (31:23)
HR, there's safety performance issues, right? HR is concerned.
Dr. Jackie (31:27)
⁓ And so we'll come in that door and then we'll end up working with a lot of people.
Dr. Jackie (31:32)
other levels or the other door that will open the leadership
is the leadership be stressed and strained and overwhelmed.
Dr. Jackie (31:36)
you know, be
and just not know how to make sense of the, and they're wanting to come up with like a mental health strategy. We need a mental health strategy, right? And so we have a lot of organizations that have come to our EAP is not working, you know, our people, you know, we don't know how to make sense of this. we kind of sit, you know, we don't,
Dr. Jackie (31:41)
disability costs are through the roof.
to and said, our too late. Our HR performance managing people don't have anything in the middle.
place EAP service, or legal and all that other stuff. We have a wheelhouse.
Dr. Jackie (32:04)
We don't do financial. If you know, we, we, we, we have a sweet spot. Don't
treat illness. You know, we're not a clinical service. We are non-clinical. is about mental illness. Right. And so, ⁓ yeah. So we sort of find the organization.
Dr. Jackie (32:14)
This is about mental fitness and health, not illness.
our place in for EAP. So we're organizations
to invest upstream, to invest. You know, with different levels of, of, of reason, you know,
Dr. Jackie (32:28)
upstream in their people. Know that people are going to come in.
of course.
You know that just like there's going to be physical hazards, there's going to be psychos. There's going be
Dr. Jackie (32:38)
physical physical physical physical physical physical physical
Dr. Jackie (32:42)
customers and complicated tasks and multitasking, all kinds of demands and requirements to provide and work. You know that those things are going to happen.
Dr. Jackie (32:48)
to suit closely with others.
You would not send your individual employee physical workspace where you hazards were there. We send them.
Dr. Jackie (32:54)
tools and your ways into a physical and you didn't prepare them into
these things. think resilience is like a
Dr. Jackie (33:03)
psychological
hard hat. It's your PPE. It's your psychological PPE. So you go to the workplace, you're adequately prepared to know what the roles are.
Dr. Jackie (33:07)
You go into a place and you're at it, meet the demands, you know what the demands are. ⁓
Bernie (33:19)
So, what are you?
I understand for a company to hire you to provide the service. If a company has hired you and they're about to do a strategy shift, whether it's if you're publicly funded and the funding agency says, you know what, we don't have as much money as we had before. I'm going to pass story. I think from 1990 to 2018, I don't think there was ever a year where I ever heard
We're flush with cash, not one year, not one. And so like at a certain point in time, it became a repeat and rinse and repeat story. However, that said, sometimes the the crush does come in or there's an actual shift in delivery. You know, if you're a manufacturer and all of sudden today we're not making stuff out of plastic anymore, we're making out of wood or whatever the case might be. And it's going to cause some schisms.
Dr. Jackie (34:09)
Absolutely.
Bernie (34:11)
Does the company then involve you and say, listen, we're about to go through a disruption or better yet, a merger. I love mergers said no one ever. It has, it has its benefits. took the hospital I was at, it took him about 10 years to kind of heal.
Dr. Jackie (34:26)
⁓ yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Dr. Jackie (34:26)
Hmm.
We will be brought in sometimes, times relatively. It's kind of pay now or pay later, right? Because what's gonna happen is these things are gonna impact people. Cuts are gonna impact people. They're gonna impact the morale. All kinds of changing change. And change, everybody who's done change management knows
Dr. Jackie (34:31)
proactively something on things and sometimes react.
impactful.
people.
things manage change is really really difficult.
Dr. Jackie (34:54)
that there is an emotional arc.
Dr. Jackie (34:56)
that people move through.
Dr. Jackie (34:58)
during changes, right? And so, the navigation change requires
Dr. Jackie (35:00)
Having the emotional capacity to gate change requires
resilience.
Dr. Jackie (35:06)
Right? so, you know, I just think that organizations, you know, think about how hard, you know,
Dr. Jackie (35:09)
When we're
The is to
retain good talent in people, to recruit.
Dr. Jackie (35:16)
and retain.
you know, good talent, you know, that's just one side of the coin.
Dr. Jackie (35:24)
There's
the disability cost and the leave cost and the operational disruption when people aren't able to perform. People have goals and then the increased people.
Dr. Jackie (35:29)
⁓
and other people to step in and fill their role demands on those people.
So again, people
Dr. Jackie (35:38)
People are human.
to
role of leadership is if you want outcomes, you're in productivity and all of those things, you need to be able to manage your resources and risks.
Dr. Jackie (35:45)
responsible for outcome, profit, and savings.
and your risk,
and there's financial risks, there's human risks, and there's
Dr. Jackie (35:55)
resources and there's human resources. really is
difficult leadership decisions, but I think futuristic leaders like leaders that that understand the things of today's workplace recognize the importance of investing in their people.
Dr. Jackie (36:05)
I think the complexities place, record importance.
Yeah. It's no longer a nice to have. It has become a need to have. Yeah.
Dr. Jackie (36:16)
It's.
Bernie (36:19)
Dr. Jackie, we're coming near the end of our time here. it's like, can't listen. I can keep going. I can see us having another part because I've lived in that space. And, know, as you're as you're talking and going, well, hang on this on. Yeah, yeah. Which is which is totally fine. If you had to leave a thought for business, regardless what whatever the business is.
Dr. Jackie (36:32)
Yeah, and this comes up and this comes up.
Bernie (36:42)
What is it that you want to impart on them? One or three thoughts that say, listen, if you're experiencing this.
You're at, you're at the stage where you need this.
Dr. Jackie (36:51)
If you're
Dr. Jackie (36:52)
If you're recognizing burnout, right? you're noticing burnout, the problem
Dr. Jackie (36:54)
that that is
and people are going on leave and and that you know that
Dr. Jackie (37:00)
that your workforce is stressed and strained, health and safety issues.
Dr. Jackie (37:02)
trained and there's,
mental health is a personal weakness, it's a system failure. ⁓
Dr. Jackie (37:07)
not personal is it's a there's
are in charge of the system so leaders need to
Dr. Jackie (37:14)
you know put black
Dr. Jackie (37:15)
proactive
systems in place to support and develop their people.
Dr. Jackie (37:19)
Now, the other thing is, that businesses are not hospitals, leaders are not therapists, right? And so, at work, don't need treatment. This is an important thing. So, we can be compassionate, but also ⁓ people accountable.
Dr. Jackie (37:25)
Most people, they need skills. So this is a good thing.
a whole people,
right, to be able to do their jobs. I think the most important is that there are hazards at work. There are hazards at work. There are risks at work. are invisible. They are no-
Dr. Jackie (37:39)
And the important thing is, know,
Some of them are invisible, but they are no
less dangerous than physical hazards. And so we need to know about them, and we need to know that we can actually build not only work on that side, mitigate risks, but we can
Dr. Jackie (37:56)
dangerous.
dress hazards actually
help people to build their resources.
Dr. Jackie (38:13)
that
resilience isn't a mindset, it's a skill set and that we can train.
Dr. Jackie (38:18)
And
if we train people, they will perform.
Dr. Jackie (38:20)
better. And you perform
better, then you're going to get the outcomes that you're looking for.
Dr. Jackie (38:25)
that you're looking
Bernie (38:26)
You have a-
I'm just looking at checking on the notes here. A bonus for the audience. You have a resilience snapshot assessment.
Bernie (38:34)
⁓ yes, yes, yes. all about?
Dr. Jackie (38:36)
Yeah,
well
Dr. Jackie (38:36)
If
you go to our website www.air-institutes.org, which is abbreviated ⁓
Dr. Jackie (38:43)
There's an effort to kind
of a short form of our assessment.
Dr. Jackie (38:49)
big resilience, set
longer, it's 32 pages. This is just a few pages, it just takes you really quick check in, global score, interprets that for you, a sense of your sense of what I call
Dr. Jackie (38:54)
takes you few minutes, gives you kind of a glow for you, and gives ⁓ you your strength, all the
big four mental muscles, your capacity to be effective and keep things in proportion when you're under stress. Clearly, to that mental discipline.
Dr. Jackie (39:04)
You mean, maintain pers- portion, your capacity to think clearly, to be mentally,
to feel fit, intelligence in your social. So it's, it's not, you have a sense of what your sort of strength. This is for circuits to be functioning. They need to well together to be a well-founded
Dr. Jackie (39:15)
to your emotional competence. It's just a snapshot and it gives you a brain-based model, a big neural circuit. They need to be working all rounded,
And so, the taste of the model and...
Dr. Jackie (39:33)
I give you a little glimpse into that, a little bit of the model.
Yeah, just some fun, free insight.
Dr. Jackie (39:39)
And if you want to learn more, you can reach out. Yeah.
Dr. Jackie (39:42)
Love to have conversation.
Bernie (39:43)
Well, Dr. Jackie, so if they want to reach out other than air-institutes.com, is there any other means that you want them to reach out by?
Dr. Jackie (39:53)
Well, they can email us, office.com. mean, those are.
Dr. Jackie (39:55)
at airdashinstitutes.org are
really the best ways to get hold of us.
Dr. Jackie (40:00)
We're always around, there's contact forms, all kinds of things. People reach out and we look back to you. We love having conversations on your journey. It doesn't matter if you're starting, if you're just thinking about things, if you're looking to make a change, whether you're ready or not. ⁓
Dr. Jackie (40:06)
We'll get. It doesn't matter where you are in. You just.
or just
We're here.
Try to help you.
Bernie (40:23)
I want to say thank you to Dr. Jackie Kinley, So if you haven't guessed it yet, Dr. Jackie is really passionate about watching people become strong and regain clarity and confidence and capacity. It's about success. When we're all successful, we move much further as opposed to kind of spinning around in a circle.
It's like driving with two wheels and one of them is flat. You're just going to go in circles. Not so good. So mental fitness, it's the key. The program is designed to help you stay fit. And if you need further help, then either reach out to Dr. Jackie Kinley or if you need actual help with yourself, that's that's you know, go talk to your doctor. Right. But that's part of the path. And knowing when to go get