Joanne Grigoriev of Just Lean Back shares how smart design, bold pivots, and one hardwood frame can transform the way you live — and the way you build a business.
GROWTH PILLAR: Leadership & Ops
WHO THIS IS FOR: SMB owners / Solopreneurs / Product-based entrepreneurs / Leaders building systems
WHAT THEY'LL GAIN: How to pivot without losing your identity. How to design for scale from day one. How to own a niche and stop competing with the box stores.
Your space should work for you. Most furniture doesn't. It wobbles, it falls apart, and it's gone in three years. Joanne Grigoriev of Just Lean Back has spent decades solving that problem — one hardwood frame at a time.
Joanne and her husband Nikita — a pilot who holds the first US patent in convertible furniture — built a product line rooted in ergonomics, functional design, and real craftsmanship. In this episode, she walks Bernie through the full arc: from flutist to furniture entrepreneur, from futon frustration to a refined niche, and from near-collapse to a leaner, stronger business model.
This is not just a furniture story. It's a business story. Joanne talks about how cheap overseas competition almost wiped them out — and how that pressure forced a better pivot. She breaks down how production efficiency is a design decision, why artisans struggle to scale and what to do about it, and how to price, position, and sell something handmade in a world of mass production.
Key topics covered:
Connect with Joanne Grigoriev:
Also mentioned: Wayne Pratt — K4B Co-Host
Sponsors:
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Bernie (00:05)
Question of the audience. Why does your home look nice, but still not feel calm, comfortable, or truly livable? That's exactly what our guests will unpack. No pun intended in this episode. She'll share how thoughtful, space smart design can transform the way you live and work at home.
So your space finally supports your wellbeing instead of draining it. If you're ready to create a home that feels as good as it looks, stay with us and listen to the next few steps on how to get there. Which leads us to our guest, Joanne Grigoriev from Just Lean Back.
She is the heart behind Just Lean Back, which brings an artist's eye to everyday living. A retired classical flutist, she has a natural instinct for harmony, balance and design that truly works for real people in real homes. Inspired by her husband Nikita, the pioneer who earned the first US patent in convertible furniture, Joanne developed a deep appreciation for functional beauty.
that just doesn't look good, but generally supports how we live. Through Just Lean Back, she's championed sustainable space-saving furniture that helps people create calm, comfortable, and stylish spaces. Her work invites others to enjoy the art of living well, where thoughtful design quietly elevates daily life. And when summer arrives, you'll often find Joanne out in the water, sailing her laser with the same joy she brings to her craft.
Joanne, it's an absolute pleasure having you here. Welcome. Do have a favorite quote or saying, mam
Joanne (01:27)
Yes, I do.
Joanne (01:29)
And thank you for having me here today, gentlemen. My favorite.
Joanne (01:33)
quote is the good.
Joanne (01:36)
design is born in the pursuit of quintessential solution to perceived and sharply defined user needs. And that is from my husband Nikita Grigoryev.
Joanne (01:39)
of the
to clearly perceive.
Wow.
Bernie (01:49)
Excellent. So, flutist, furniture, there's a bit of a span there. One is pushing out air and the other one's pushing out places to put things on, including yourself. How'd you roll that through? How'd you come into that space?
Joanne (02:04)
You know, full of curves and twists and opportunities and doorways that, and I open the door and take a peek. ⁓ this sure was a calling. It was my talent since a little, and I loved it. And I'll tell you, playing the flute and maybe an entrepreneurship, ever space you're in.
Joanne (02:05)
Life is.
Open will always
First of all, fluted or sh-
girl.
what they have what
which
Joanne (02:32)
It's about freedom. When I'm playing my flute, I feel like I'm soaring like an eagle. And I think entrepreneurs, we have that same desire to be free from the mold, free from constraints and make our own decisions and go for it. So how did furniture come into it? It really literally came in through my husband's creativity. I recognized it even before he did and voila.
Joanne (02:39)
feel free.
Joanne (03:00)
what was in our living room created became a business because we recognized it as something that could be a business.
Bernie (03:07)
What was he doing before he started the furniture piece?
Joanne (03:10)
flying around the world delivering aircraft.
Joanne (03:11)
Thank you.
craft.
He's a pilot.
Joanne (03:15)
And used to be a tech rep,
you know, representing de Havilland, right? We were from Toronto, yeah, around the world and getting planes that were, you know, stuck on the ground and nobody could figure it out. But he would come along and study it and figure it out and put it back up in the air.
Bernie (03:35)
So the first US patent on convertible furniture. And I'm thinking there's a Swedish firm that's out there. And is that even before the Swedish firm kicked in, or is this just the first US patent from a US citizen?
Joanne (03:49)
So that that.
Joanne (03:50)
It's a it was
patent was issued. Yeah, you're you're right in America. We had just moved to America and came through so you're
Joanne (03:58)
talking
about IKEA, correct? Yeah.
Joanne (04:03)
Back in that day, IKEA was like, exciting. was about design. ⁓ But with time, that changed to meet, they lowered their standards.
Joanne (04:04)
Like quality, was exce-
Joanne (04:14)
So which is something we don't want to do ever. So they were players in the field, very exciting, but not necessarily in the Bhutan world. We know all the old timers, all the original designers. My husband was the first one to file for a patent. Hello, that was me.
And, ⁓ you know, it's, it has served us so well since then. but yeah, Ikea was around, interestingly, interestingly enough at one time we called our business Nikita engineering art and the acronym was Nikea. And it just became too confusing. It's like, you're with Ikea. So we changed it.
Joanne (04:51)
that
Bernie (04:57)
In my deep dark distant past, I've actually sold futons.
Joanne (05:02)
love you.
Bernie (05:02)
as you may know, Kingston is a university town. everyone, all these 20-somethings came in to buy their first futon and, you know, it was fascinating.
Joanne (05:13)
Yep.
Joanne (05:13)
Such fond memories of Kingston, not so much because of futons, but because of my flute. I was with the National Youth Orchestra.
Joanne (05:21)
right, the elite.
Joanne (05:23)
players, the young players are chosen. We auditioned, cetera. And then in the summer we would ⁓ in Kingston at the university, ⁓ stationed there and, you know, train training, performing rehearsing. And then we would do a small tour. That's my fond, fond memory. And you know, it's along the river. Back then there was a windsurfer that would go out on the, on the river in a black wetsuit and just like.
Joanne (05:25)
where
B.
So.
So every day.
Joanne (05:51)
That was before they had harnesses and everything. And he would just go up and down at high speed for hours. I was just.
Joanne (05:57)
just
awestruck would go for walks to the shore. That's where I got hooked.
Joanne (06:02)
And I think that's way saying it.
Bernie (06:07)
Being an artist from the sound side to an artist who's creating something that is and your husband doing the design, is there a relationship between having that artful side and the appearance? Like your husband flies planes, right? So everything's about form and function. know, planes don't look like bricks when they're flying through the air. They might be the odd one, but you know.
Joanne (06:16)
Mm-hmm.
Bernie (06:33)
It's not, you know, not everybody buys that one. Is there some sort of like design? It almost sounds like, you know, if you think back, let's say the Bauhaus, you know, there's certain design arts. you fall in a certain design pattern and does the rich background you're coming from, from the sound and ⁓ aircraft design also play a role into that whole making the shapes for the aesthetic?
Joanne (06:54)
Thus,
Joanne (06:55)
Really, really good question. And I think what you're dialing into.
Joanne (06:59)
is like
Joanne (07:00)
the person, like the individual. And so there's influences, but I think we ourselves to be influenced by that we accept and that which comes from us. so, I have to say, I think it's different expressions, the person's talent, and then that starts compounding and we gain experience.
Joanne (07:02)
really, right?
We allow that which we accept.
to say yes, but
of
So.
Joanne (07:26)
My husband's very, very talented in design. There's in creativity. There's no doubt about that. and
Joanne (07:32)
the aircraft part of it.
Joanne (07:34)
like seeing things with that, like aerodynamics and then mechanisms and all of that engineering, I think you're quite astute in saying that there was an influence and still is an influence on that. mean, when you think about having that big, all that machinery, that huge thing lying,
Joanne (07:51)
Like you say that.
Joanne (07:56)
thinking and you're an engineer and you're thinking in terms of principles and concepts, you're stretching that whole idea and that eventually will get applied, think, influence any other designs that you come out with or you know, to, apply yourself to is what I meant really. Like given a problem, how do we best approach it? And all of that experience and having studied aircraft and even
Joanne (08:02)
area.
Joanne (08:23)
design for aircraft and then flown the aircraft and sometimes pushing the envelope is that plays in, think, to every moment of our life then, including our designs.
Bernie (08:34)
So one of the best ways to get to good design is bad design. How many people did you maim in the earlier process?
Joanne (08:42)
I mean, that is a good design is a solution to design. And as far as the futon design, the just lean, now we call it just lean back. So we are distinguishing ourselves from the futon.
Joanne (08:43)
So astute, like-
Because of exactly
Joanne (08:59)
Like, you know, it's just for students and then they throw it out on the curb when they're, their semesters. So we wanted to make up that distinction.
Joanne (09:03)
Over
But it's,
Joanne (09:09)
You know, I call it futon frame frustration that we, if I'm talking about futons.
Joanne (09:12)
have a
Yeah. It's.
Joanne (09:15)
frustrating, right? They're
wobbly, they fall apart, the arms play out, it keeps sliding, the middle is always shaking. this is a completely different approach to converting a sofa into a bed. And it's using just very, very simple geometry, but finely tuned geometry. And I think that's what Bernie's referring to it. How does everything play in?
Joanne (09:28)
⁓ stable bed.
like
Joanne (09:40)
to coming up with a quintessential design. And absolutely Wayne, it's...
Joanne (09:44)
It's a like you first.
Joanne (09:46)
you see problems
and the futon frames are riddled problems like some of them you had to pull pegs
Joanne (09:51)
out, right?
Joanne (09:53)
And then they lie flat and they're height of your ankle. So only students can use it. No grownups. You know what I'm saying?
Joanne (09:55)
Like about the
Lots of of lots of
Joanne (10:03)
Redundancies
in the design. and you know, aircraft that has fewer redundancies, like one part can do many things was what I mean, instead of a lot of tacked on stuff makes it makes the aircraft heavy.
Joanne (10:17)
et cetera
like that.
Joanne (10:19)
When you have something quintessential, one thing.
Joanne (10:22)
that does really everything.
Joanne (10:23)
Everything just
about everything because it's a quintessential solution Then you you come to the essence of simplicity and that Problems
Joanne (10:32)
usually solves.
Bernie (10:34)
So some people look at nature, they'll see things and they'll take the elements of nature, like the Furbinacci design, you'll see that in seashells. Is there some sort of element that you incorporate from natural design that you're picking up from nature that's around you?
Joanne (10:51)
Wow. That is a really, really good question. So like I
Joanne (10:54)
good question, a deep question. have
friends down in the Catskill Mountains and they make beautiful tables from enormous trees and they look supernatural. Not supernatural. Natural. They look natural, not supernatural. And in fact, that's how my husband started was
Joanne (11:01)
table.
with
just big, big Cedar block like years later. So.
Joanne (11:17)
and then later it became very fashionable.
I have to say that what we're doing now
Joanne (11:22)
is like that, but.
Joanne (11:23)
It's not.
when we observe nature.
Joanne (11:27)
Like, how does, like-
Joanne (11:29)
How did the nutrients go up the trees so high? How does a bumblebee fly? When we're observing these phenomena, how do the birds know how to fly? That kind of thing. Then I think there is a desire to look for solutions. Can mirror, not necessarily.
Joanne (11:32)
How does, like how?
I'm of-
that for that we
look like it like a beautiful big table.
Joanne (11:51)
made from a
trunk, you know, sliced nice and flat and then finished. So it's more principles of function.
Joanne (11:59)
I would say that.
Joanne (12:00)
influence our design because we have function focused.
Joanne (12:02)
You are very
So.
Joanne (12:05)
And that's ergonomics, very, important for us. We're building for the human body. in that way, if you want to extend that to nature, it's not just something you see on a patio at a hotel or something with a low back, straight seat, and you're uncomfortable really.
Joanne (12:08)
are.
quickly.
Joanne (12:25)
⁓ and may end up with a backache with our furniture. It's, it's designed for the human body.
Joanne (12:32)
to support it as a new
Joanne (12:35)
needs
to be. in that way, it's, ⁓ it's inspired by nature. It's inspired by life. And then looking for the best solution.
Joanne (12:43)
or that that
to provide.
Up or up.
Joanne (12:51)
piece of product
or piece of furniture that serves in that way. We use only hardwood and natural finishes. So in that way, you're getting a hundred percent solid hardwood. So we're using the natural products, not to look, not to stay in its primal look. It's being engineered into something very practical.
Joanne (12:55)
So our
like.
like book it's.
very usable for the user.
Joanne (13:16)
and very confident user.
Bernie (13:19)
So I won't even mention the $99 pine futons I sub-frames I sold.
Joanne (13:23)
you can mention them. I don't think you did.
Bernie (13:26)
Actually, I do have a serious question. We talked to a lot of entrepreneurs and there's a word that comes up a great deal called pivot. And you guys have a story to tell. I find there are three reasons people pivot. One is they can't stand the bureaucracy and politics anymore when they leave corporate. I'm done. The other one is I desperately need $500 more a month. My kids need piano lessons.
And then the third reason is I have a calling, whether it's design, furniture or whatever. Which one of those or combination of those three were you?
Joanne (13:59)
So me, in reference to this, is a combination of myself and my husband. So we've been doing ⁓ just lean back and all its iterations there. I'm just putting.
Joanne (14:10)
together. So his part of it was AV. Like it was exciting. It was profitable.
Joanne (14:13)
The aviation slumped. Fighting, was fun, it was profitable,
and then there was a big time slump.
Joanne (14:21)
So it's like, well, what do do?
Joanne (14:23)
You're not traveling around the world flying planes and you love wood. And so you start to look inside. It's like, well, what can I do? What do I love? Just like you said, it's coming from within. So that's how my husband got involved or started with furniture. and I say it was first, was just exactly what Bernie was asking about.
Joanne (14:30)
Like.
Start with
at first
Joanne (14:42)
more, much more like natural and natural to the setting from where the came from. For me, I grew up, I have never known corporate, even as a parent, corporate. I grew up in 100 % entrepreneurial home, self-made man for my father and the whole family was involved.
Joanne (14:51)
up.
that work. I.
Self.
We loved it.
Joanne (15:07)
⁓ and we knew the ups and downs and the push and then the, the, the slow time when we could Europe or, and then it's like, you, you're just helping with the business now when it was the, the, the, the really intense times. So I understood that that's the only thing I ever knew was self accountability. so I have two sisters and all of us have our own businesses, never even considered.
Joanne (15:11)
the like the whatever go go to the cottage.
We.
corporate.
Joanne (15:34)
Never. so it was natural flow. My husband, a hundred percent also he's, you know, he's not gonna, he's unemployed. You have a design, you have a challenge.
Joanne (15:44)
Let's hear it.
Joanne (15:45)
I'll
let you know if I can come up with a solution.
Joanne (15:49)
Right. It's like that. So the pivot though for ⁓
Joanne (15:50)
us, we did have bits
within the furniture business. and it was more the external circumstances. Incomes just about stopped when America, do cheap China metal. It was made very easy for cheap China metal, but on frames and stuff.
Joanne (15:59)
So.
it. My phrase this.
X.
Joanne (16:12)
to come into America and Americans started gobbling it up.
Joanne (16:15)
right, because it was a very, very low price. So that puts you about.
Joanne (16:18)
just to
everybody in you know, in us, small manufacturing. we, so I'll get to that later, but small manufacturing, put them out, just about put them out.
Joanne (16:27)
So the pivot was, well, do we cave?
Joanne (16:30)
Do we give in? Do we just like throw in the towel?
Joanne (16:35)
Or do we which we.
Joanne (16:37)
You just feel like you've been punched and everything's been taken out of you after working so hard because your own business is your own baby and you invested.
Joanne (16:46)
it's
Joanne (16:48)
For us entrepreneurs, we're putting our heart and soul into it. It's not just a job. It's never just a job.
Joanne (16:54)
We were hit too.
Joanne (16:56)
And for a little while, you're just staggering and you're wondering what to do and what should we do? And then we decided to pivot from futons to something for niche market, a real niche market, high quality, unique design. We redesigned it so that it could be produced in a small shop with a small footprint.
Joanne (16:58)
Well, it was like
Joanne (17:19)
print very, very efficiently. ⁓ All of those parameters and the design itself became lighter, easier to assemble and even more.
Joanne (17:22)
So.
easier to use.
Joanne (17:32)
covered
everything that
Joanne (17:34)
that the
Joanne (17:34)
that the market could possibly sustain and accept. And then we started targeting more niche markets and we weren't afraid to change much more. And we drew that distinction. you know, we saw the rise of Birkenstock, Sandalwood that cost a lot of money.
Joanne (17:43)
charge.
sleep.
or.
Joanne (17:54)
You know, specialty organic food shops. You know, it's like the apples twice as much. so we saw a lot people here among the people, a market gap, lot of are getting tired, growing, you know,
Joanne (17:57)
It's like, well, has food. App like God. I that there was a, ⁓ a design.
for quality of...
plastic cheap plastic
Joanne (18:14)
stick
and cheap China metal into their landfills here in America. And there was a demographic waking up.
Joanne (18:21)
That was our pivot.
Joanne (18:22)
it
within, just lean back.
Bernie (18:24)
I want to touch on the manufacturing piece and you already kind of talked about it. You've built a design so it doesn't require a heavy resource. So you get a prototype and you know, so this could be two or three questions wrapped in this query here. How often do do a prototype or how many times do you do an iteration of a given product? Two, woodworking.
you know, every once in a while, I'll listen to someone talk about wood and then they explain things, you know, the direction of the grain. Then, you know, if you're buttressing it up against another piece of wood, the grain has to the opposite. know, there are a whole bunch of nuances and then even the finishing of it, right? And then, you know, if you have a block of wood or you have, you know, you're bending it, you know, using steam, you know, there's a whole series of things. And then the finishes, right? So,
What's the life cycle like? Here's my lumber, here's some stuffing, here's some fabric for the cloth portion. I want us to take from, got it here from raw to finished and distribution. How do you move it around? I gave you about four hours worth of questions right there, but just if you want to do a quick sum check on some of them.
Joanne (19:39)
And those questions actually involve
Joanne (19:42)
several pivots.
Joanne (19:43)
you know, situations change in the world.
Joanne (19:46)
We had the big COVID.
Joanne (19:48)
That change, we made big changes during that time and what the change was simplicity. We can't offer every single beautiful.
we're not offering any more finishes. used to have. Brasso and white and ⁓ then fruit and dark walnut. And we had four woods. Now we have one wood finished or unfinished. A limited line of fabric. so.
Joanne (19:59)
like a black like for
That's
so that's what how we pivoted so
Joanne (20:17)
But
it's interesting. That's a really good question. Frame like hang on, but we. Because of the efficiency, like once the wood is in in the shop. It's one man hour.
Joanne (20:20)
as the for the year. have because if.
Okay?
Joanne (20:31)
Now, that's because of hyper efficiency. It's not just one person doing it.
Joanne (20:36)
But if you calculate all of the steps.
Joanne (20:39)
one man hour per frame.
for finished product that's unfinished, then finished takes a bit more time. that's an example. That's the efficiency production really honed in and yet simple. Now some of the other questions.
Joanne (20:44)
We have that.
part of.
still useful.
Bernie (20:54)
But how long has
Joanne (20:55)
Iterations
iterations the iteration we have current ⁓
Joanne (20:57)
The.
Is, I don't want to say the word perfect, but it is good. It's.
Joanne (21:06)
It's,
can't get, especially the freedom frame, the armless one, when you get into arms, arms, then you get into styling, right? But the freedom frame, the principles truck. So the freedom frame, meaning it's the,
Joanne (21:15)
sure. Like.
The support is why we call it that.
Joanne (21:19)
recessed. And so you have a free perimeter. That's a free
perimeter in the sofa and then you have a free perimeter in the in the bed. That is like the quintessential. Everything is is limped is pared down to the quintessential essence of what you need. When you get into having a piece with arms and wraparound boards and stuff, that's when you get into styling and you can then then it's a matter of the iterations would be
⁓ you know, we should make the arm top wider, looks better. Well, then how do you have the structure? Then it's like...
Joanne (21:45)
⁓
pressure, whatever it's called.
Joanne (21:52)
My husband's better, know,
Joanne (21:55)
Wait, wait.
Joanne (21:56)
loads and pressure and then when it's converting, how stable will it be and how vulnerable will it
Joanne (22:02)
be, et cetera.
Joanne (22:04)
But I can tell you ⁓
as as iterations, have something when we are coming up with a new design, fundamental design, or even let's say a new iteration of what have. One thing that could possibly happen in the future is I don't know about why, but maybe Americans, they're either getting older or they're getting creakier. so they want the piece a little higher. Okay. Can it be higher? We're doing, is that
Joanne (22:15)
what we
It's like, well,
Joanne (22:30)
Normal sofa height. Well, can you put it higher anyway? And that would be a, an engineering, ⁓ we'd have to go through. It's like the, you know, I have the, we have the idea, but now we got to come up with the exact, exact, components and how they're going to reconfigure and all of that. Be a iteration would take time. It takes time.
Joanne (22:37)
what we call prototype blues.
So that would re.
It's like a real, it's.
Joanne (22:56)
Like
composing or something or writing a book.
Joanne (22:58)
It's without AI.
Joanne (23:00)
coming from within you, have all these thoughts and these, and then you've got to work through it. And that's the same with, you know, with an iteration. It's like almost like a new design and it can take days. can take weeks. You're lucky.
Joanne (23:12)
Lucky it just
takes hours.
Bernie (23:14)
No, it's perfect. Because you're handling the full spectrum from high, there's raw material or design, prototype it. Now I've got to manufacture it. you're going to tweak things so you can go boom, boom, boom. There's a recipe, And it's effective use of ⁓ man hours and or woman hours or labor and product.
Right. you're to the races. Distribution. So like, do they come to you? they find it in your local furniture store or is it especially niche retailers for you? How do you handle the distribution piece?
Joanne (23:53)
We used to
Joanne (23:54)
Good question. ⁓
Back in the day, we used to a of the futon stores. had like hundred accounts, right? And so that's what we were doing.
Joanne (23:59)
service alone.
It was a quality piece.
Joanne (24:06)
And then
⁓ survivors came up for air.
Joanne (24:09)
re- ⁓
Joanne (24:10)
We
designed themselves and we did that.
And serving volume was no longer.
Joanne (24:15)
priority.
Joanne (24:16)
big numbers was no longer a priority, niche market became.
Joanne (24:19)
goal. had for a while. was great. COVID stopped that.
Joanne (24:20)
showrooms.
And so now then the other final, I don't know if it's the final, but we're just serving online. We're, you know, direct to the consumer and we have some very good timer accounts.
Joanne (24:28)
of it. This stage, we're
Good. ⁓ Like old.
That had very high quality.
Joanne (24:39)
one's futon shop in California, another one in Cambridge, Mass.
Joanne (24:43)
Bedworks.
We have customers like that that we
Joanne (24:49)
will
only carry quality and those
Joanne (24:52)
are who we serve.
Joanne (24:55)
I would say naturally.
Bernie (24:58)
Do you use influencers to that? Every once in a while I come downstairs and all of a sudden my, wife is watching, hi, I'm ripping apart this house or I'm looking to buy this house. know, and I'm sitting there going, Oh yeah, yeah, that's fun. That's fun. But at the same time,
Joanne (24:56)
fly
Joanne (24:57)
Thanks.
Bernie (25:15)
Well, if you're looking to redo a house, right? Then you're getting your, you're getting the design inspirations. You get a sense of where things are going. Do you find to help promote the product? So if you, you got to know about it, right? But B also, someone's got to say, well, why is this better than that? Well, this one's coming from overseas or it's made from material from overseas. And yeah, it has a lifespan of maybe three years or less, depending on who's using it.
Joanne (25:26)
if
Bernie (25:42)
versus let's say showrooms, example, Or showrooms and or hair and stores where, you know, it's that is designed to last a long time. You know, it's a almost an heirloom piece.
Joanne (25:55)
Aralem quality.
Joanne (25:56)
Yep.
Bernie (25:56)
So do you use influencers then to help promote this?
Joanne (26:00)
That's a wonderful question. have started working with one. He's helping with Instagram and we
Joanne (26:02)
Darn.
So she.
We
have a project for the future where we will be with our
Joanne (26:14)
supplying her furniture
for glamping domes that be creating retreats.
Joanne (26:17)
she will be creating this
with. So that is a step.
Joanne (26:21)
in that direction. And I think you're
Joanne (26:24)
You're
quite right. That is absolutely the way to go.
Joanne (26:27)
go
in this day and age. And it's something that can be done on the on the internet, really.
Joanne (26:35)
So, is that world?
Joanne (26:36)
We're stepping into that.
Bernie (26:37)
I just imagine this being a glamping, I just imagine a 747 where all the seats were futons. I don't know how works, but I...
Joanne (26:46)
Literally imagine that too. thought our design's perfect for just lean back and go to sleep, you know, on first class, print the principal design of it.
Bernie (26:53)
I do have a serious question that you actually worked through and maybe even uncovered. Some of our clients, some of our guests are artisans. And the problem is that almost guarantees they can't scale. So, I mean, if you were looking, if you were going to spitball and there was licensing and franchising and selling to a bigger company who had distribution or
or bringing in children, or how do you see artisans growing their business when it was based on a craft?
Joanne (27:30)
Yeah, OK.
Joanne (27:31)
Two things here. I've done a lot of artisan shows and we
Joanne (27:33)
Well, first of all, out of.
would
sell a lot because so the so the I believe for us at least
Joanne (27:40)
The reason.
All of those shows, the
ones I was participating in, it had to be handcrafted.
Joanne (27:49)
Right.
Joanne (27:50)
had to be handcrafted. I think some things are scalable and some things aren't necessarily scalable. If you're talking, I mean, I know a jeweler, she's scaling.
Joanne (27:59)
It's the ability to...
Joanne (28:02)
to the
ability to scale, to make volume. And that kind of diminishes ⁓ the artisan quality, right? The artisan mystique about it, the artisan appeal.
Joanne (28:09)
This that.
So.
Joanne (28:17)
I'm not sure that, you know, cause we can, we can buy something, you know, from Walmart that looks beautiful, but we know it wasn't made with love and, and the right, beautiful materials and the raw materials, cetera.
slightly different. We can fall into the two categories.
Joanne (28:36)
But for us, how it was.
Joanne (28:37)
Scaling is designed
from the very beginning.
And that brings me back to what Bernie was asking about like production.
Joanne (28:46)
The production.
is
Joanne (28:48)
as much a design as the design itself.
Joanne (28:51)
the product.
Joanne (28:52)
It's, unless you can, unless you're thinking in that way and have, let's say skills, we all have different skills and you have that.
Joanne (28:56)
way?
you have that ability to create.
Joanne (29:02)
A system, everything comes down to systems. Create a system.
Joanne (29:07)
that will allow for.
Joanne (29:09)
⁓ minimal technology or maximum.
Joanne (29:10)
like
like results.
Joanne (29:14)
And so in one, in you're able to scale and still keep it simple.
That I think is a skill. And I don't think most artisans think like that.
Joanne (29:24)
or have that skill. they would have to.
Joanne (29:26)
hire somebody. So if you're making little jewelry things and painting them, hand painting them and things, I think immediately, okay, well, because we did go to China, you know, and we looked at when we look because you know, when you're knocked out, then you think, okay, well, what
How we f*** this out? What are the doors that can open? And going to China and having it made in China, we considered that and we absolutely said no.
Joanne (29:47)
⁓ people were abused. We would have to just, just about.
Joanne (29:51)
live
there to manage and educate and then it would be riddled with problems anyway and it's then you're dealing with the import we just we didn't want we didn't want to deal with that a
Joanne (30:00)
of ⁓ our colleagues or several of our colleagues know that.
Joanne (30:03)
colleagues did go around,
but we didn't want to deal with that. you know, you make those choices, but I think of when I'm thinking of fine made jewelry, I don't want it to be mass produced from China. If I'm going to buy it from somebody face to face, like when I'm buying meat from the local farmer, I look them in the eye and I ask them, is this, you know, was this chemical free meat?
Joanne (30:24)
like.
Joanne (30:27)
Am I eating something good for myself? And they say, yes, I trust that. And I want the same thing when I'm shopping artists. I want that handmade, unique, one of a kind. That's what I want from artisans. Our business model was never that from the beginning.
Joanne (30:33)
with all.
quality.
it was to be produced at to be scaled. That's how
Joanne (30:48)
It was
designed.
Bernie (30:50)
So if you're, if you're to sit back and look at, look at the journey you've gone through. So, you know, there's been the career shift, there's been the pivot within the business itself and so forth. What two or three elements would you want to relate to somebody if they're about to start their own business and they're going to say they're going to focus on niche? Now, maybe they can't compete with the large box store because, know, they just, you literally there's
100,000 copies of a product X and it's a certain price point. And the only way you can achieve that price point is through mass volume, right? yeah, you can't do it, but you've got something that people do want. What tips, what three kind of key points would you want to relate to people and share it with them to say, if you're a start of this venture, this is what you gotta know.
Joanne (31:41)
Okay, thank you. ⁓ To set the platform, or set the concept, number one, don't be envious.
Joanne (31:44)
This is like.
Love.
Joanne (31:51)
of Amazon or the big box stores. Don't, don't go there.
Own your space. Own your brilliance.
And create the niche, be confident in it. And when you're communicating, know.
Joanne (32:04)
what you solve.
Joanne (32:05)
know what you're giving the person.
Joanne (32:08)
what the result is.
Joanne (32:09)
for
them will be and focus on that.
Joanne (32:12)
Because what you have, there are people that will love what you have. It's your job to. That.
Joanne (32:17)
And you're, it's to convey that.
And so how do you make yourself visible?
Joanne (32:24)
Well, there's there's
Joanne (32:25)
platforms like Etsy is a wonderful one. Etsy, there's other platforms like that. Learn about what works, know, funnels and things like that. got working in the paradigm of communication that we live in.
Joanne (32:33)
Gotta be.
Always talk about what it's, but it's the, the, the, or the.
Joanne (32:39)
distinguish yourself.
Giving what problem that it's solving person
looking. could be something very unique, very don't. a lot of don'ts here.
Joanne (32:50)
special and there's
don't price it.
Joanne (32:54)
According to, know, if you're afraid to price things because of your own, maybe background or upbringing, whatever, don't do that. Understand that there is someone at every price point that you can serve and think of them, not of
Joanne (33:15)
yourself or.
Joanne (33:16)
And so those things and.
Joanne (33:17)
Make it easy to buy.
Joanne (33:19)
When they're ready, make it easy and serve them. love on them. Follow up. Be there. mean, have a conversation with almost every, not the stores necessarily, every individual. I have conversations with them.
Joanne (33:22)
Let's
But with every buyer, direct buyer,
Bernie (33:35)
You also share a story of the origin story of the furniture or this one is, know, if it's the futon or versus one, because I'm looking in the background behind you right now, right? And there's different formats, right? There's one where multiple people or maybe it's the lovers nook type thing. Do you ever tell a story that goes with it going, this was inspired by my cat, you know, it curled on my lap?
I mean, I'm just picking something random out of the out of the air. you you have you also embed that and as part of the pitch.
We just talked about your husband and the aircraft and going, listen, this this can fly too. You just have to pretend to.
Joanne (34:16)
Well,
Joanne (34:16)
mean, the thing is, I want to be comfortable in our homes and we're, we're time in life.
Joanne (34:18)
We are.
we're where
we're the word is legit because.
Joanne (34:27)
Third overwhelm is
We're bombarded with new stuff and old stuff and stuff that's good, stuff that's bad. So much stuff. so.
Joanne (34:35)
stuff that's like.
What I like
to do is just.
Joanne (34:43)
create
a comp space and show them.
Joanne (34:45)
that
Joanne (34:46)
One thing, what if one thing or one piece could solve problems for you? So you have your, you have your, your home and it opens up, there's a screen and porch on the back. opens up a book and then beyond that is forested area. And you love being on your porch. You would even love sleeping there in the summer.
Joanne (34:51)
solve a few.
A ⁓ little bit of a.
Joanne (35:10)
And you love being there with your children, but it's a small area, right? How do you, and I mean, when the kids are gone and it's cool, you like to bring your computer there, the cup of coffee and get a few emails sent out. So that one space that I think most of us love being on our porch and
Joanne (35:24)
So.
Joanne (35:29)
I show them that our furniture can serve all of that with just a few pieces so simply, so easily, so comfortably, so safely, and they can choose the fabric. that's the way to bring is create.
Joanne (35:44)
It that's what I, I.
Joanne (35:49)
Create the vision for them.
Bernie (35:50)
Do you have a high end porch wear line?
Joanne (35:53)
Well, we have that's the outdoor convertible sofas, sofa beds for your porch.
Joanne (35:54)
where we niche.
Bernie (36:00)
Very cool. So we've mentioned online, we're meeting on Zoom. So here's a question. Where's your target market and how do we get a hold of you? And who are we if we want to talk to you?
Joanne (36:12)
beautiful. Well, you can go to our website, JustLeanBack.com and you have questions.
Joanne (36:18)
Just,
Joanne (36:19)
You know, chat with me, click on the email. I'll be the one responding. So you can ask the questions there. The phone number is every. I have this nook and it's underneath the staircase and I love it there. Little window.
Joanne (36:20)
are.
or
because there's a little bit
of but...
Joanne (36:38)
I don't want my chair to be stuck there. I was like, Oh, you need a freedom chair. It's this size. It'll roll. can roll it out. You can lean it back. You can put your feet up on the ottoman and you have a bed, a chair, a bench, everything.
Bernie (36:50)
in other countries?
Joanne (36:52)
No. You know, we've had, but when it comes down to the shipping, we haven't cracked that, you know, or that problem. You know, we haven't addressed.
Joanne (36:53)
We have had people
or that's that.
Bernie (37:04)
Can't husband fly them? Just have him bring them back.
Joanne (37:07)
Right? Yeah.
Bernie (37:08)
I was going to say that. Sorry.
Joanne (37:10)
He could.
Joanne (37:11)
Our plane is much too small.
Joanne (37:12)
Yeah.
Bernie (37:14)
And just imagine a Cessna with this big couch behind it.
Joanne (37:19)
Yeah, I mean, maybe. Yeah, I mean, he doesn't have a Mooney, but anyway, they're. That's a funny question. So right now it's it's nationwide America. I mean, if somebody really, really wants to import it to Europe or something would be a conversation and there would have to be. Decisions and movement and action taken from the end buyer too. So we're not opposed to it.
Joanne (37:22)
is a.
Joanne (37:43)
⁓ yeah.
Bernie (37:44)
Joanne, I want to say thank you so much for your time today. It's really cool to hear about someone who is building a product, bring it to market, niche, enjoys it, and there's so many components that come into it that are just a natural fit. It's almost like a custom suit story, right? And you found your custom suit and you found your marketplace. Also, I'd to thank my co-host, Wayne Pratt, and you, the Knack for Business listeners.
This just tells you, it can give you an inspiration as to how things can come together. And if you happen to be in the continental US and you're looking for that, I want to be comfortable on the back porch or in the, what do call that? The summer porch where it's kind of closed in, it's because up here in Canada, the mosquitoes will come after you and then right after the deer flies and horse flies and then the other monstrous little beasts that fly in the air. So, but anyhow.
If you're looking for that comfortable resting spot where you can sit back and just relax, reach out to