Marcus Gaughan of MindsOnFire breaks down how a Growth Operating System™ turns scattered tools into one scalable, sellable business engine.
GROWTH PILLAR: AI & Automation
WHO THIS IS FOR: SMB owners / Solopreneurs / Trades businesses / Founders building to sell
WHAT THEY'LL GAIN: A clear picture of what integrated growth looks like — and what it costs you when it's missing.
If your business runs on disconnected tools, tribal knowledge, and one person who holds everything together — it's not scalable. And it's probably not sellable either. Marcus Gaughan, founder of MindsOnFire, has spent 15 years fixing exactly that problem. He builds Growth Operating Systems™ — custom platforms that pull marketing, sales, CRM, automation, and reporting into one unified engine.
In this episode, Marcus walks through how businesses get stuck in tool overload, why most companies aren't sellable without a real system behind them, and what it actually looks like to go from chaos to clarity. He shares stories from trades companies, FinTech startups, and incubator-stage founders — and explains why a system isn't just an efficiency play. It's a valuation play.
Key topics covered:
Connect with Marcus Gaughan: Website: MindsOnFire LinkedIn: Marcus Gaughan LinkedIn Company: Minds on Fire Inc. Facebook: MindsOnFire Instagram: @mindsonfireinc Email: marcus@mindsonfire.ca
Co-hosts: Bernie Franzgrote — Kreativ Insight Consultants Inc. Wayne Pratt — Motive8U
Sponsors:
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Bernie (00:06)
Question to the audience, are you tired of juggling too many tools that don't talk to each other, leaving your business stuck instead of scaling? That's exactly what our guest will tackle. How to simplify growth by connecting technology, creativity, and strategy into one powerful system. In this episode, he'll share how his growth operating system helps founders and teams automate smartly, build scalable operations, and turn bold ideas into real results. If your business feels scattered,
Our guest today is Marcus Gochen from Minds on Fire. He's the founder of Minds on Fire, a company where technology, creativity, and growth strategies
meet to help businesses build smarter systems and stronger brands. With over 15 years in marketing, sales, and product innovation, he's guided organizations across North America and beyond from e-commerce and finance to manufacturing and sustainability, turning ideas into practical scalable systems. He also combines strategic insight with a hands-on approach using curiosity, empathy, to bridge technology with the human experience.
Wayne (01:03)
.
Bernie (01:13)
helping entrepreneurs and enterprises alike spark growth that lasts. Marcus, it's an absolute pleasure having you here today. Thank you for joining us. Do have a favorite quote or saying, sir?
Marcus (01:24)
You know what? I...
Marcus (01:26)
couldn't decide. I mean, there are too many to choose from. I have so many that have guided me. I mean, I find with everything that we're building today with different systems that other systems, I think when everyone comes to mind, this might be where I land on a quote that comes to mind often.
Marcus (01:37)
the gold rust cell shovels.
Bernie (01:42)
Well, that just works really well. So, what tripped the wire on Mine's on Fire? Hey, I got a rhyme in there.
Marcus (01:48)
Oh, you must do this for a living. love it. You know, Minds on Fire. So a few pieces. mean, I the name Minds on Fire was a really it's a big personal piece for me. I mean, I've always been a big reader. You know, I love science. I love energy physics. I have a total nerd for all this stuff. And neuroscience is an area that I read about quite often. It was in 2011. I read an article about a study done on ambitious people.
you know, set up a researcher, Caltech, they brought a group of people into a room, you know, to do an experiment on them. They put them all under an FMRI. They had these people broken out based on ambition, high ambition. They'd interviewed them beforehand. They had a few control groups. And they put everyone on MRI, watch how their brain activity lit up and had them think about different things. You know, they'd have you think about doing nothing.
Marcus (02:19)
I believe it was.
You know, low-end.
And when they're under a functional.
Line on the code.
Marcus (02:47)
way
to you know, you're chasing your dream, you're chasing your vision, you know, they'd have entrepreneurs and thinking about when they're doing what they really want to do their lives. They found that when someone is thinking ambitiously, when they are thinking at the peak of their of their vision of that ambition, the way the energy moves through their mind resembles how energy moves in a fire. And as soon as I read that, and blew my mind, like that was the coolest thing I'd ever read in my entire life.
And just it didn't start the business immediately. It started with a bit of a personal mantra, know, and on fire, be ambitious, think about vision, it sets your mind on fire, it sets your mind on fire.
Marcus (03:19)
name
be a minor.
and that I held that secretly.
Marcus (03:30)
that name see
in the back of my mind or you know, maybe five or six years before I turned it into the actual company name, I had to get I had to get it right, you know, make sure I launched it in the right way. But that's where it comes from. It's got a real neuroscientific base. And then I mean, I've the entrepreneurial world has taken really good care of me. It's been my best passion ever. So it just it's, I don't know, it's the best connection name I've ever come up with the bridge to
Wayne (03:56)
Marcus, one thing that interests me that sounds like you're a bit of a dichotomy is I've run into creatives and I run into systems guys and I find they can't talk to one another without a fistfight. So how did you jump these two hoops?
Marcus (04:10)
that's a great question. mean, I think with a bit of kicking and screaming, I mean, I definitely started out on the creative side, you know, coming in with ideas and wanting to everything. And I had the fortune of when I moved from Guelph to Kitchin Waterloo, I came to University Waterloo for material nanoscience and business. I had always had this interest in business. You know, I love the idea of it. I
Marcus (04:21)
Absolutely.
Bye.
Marcus (04:37)
I'll admit, I still thought being a business owner just meant you got to tell people what to do and you chose your own hours and you know, all the fun stuff. But I came to Waterloo for, you know, for both. had been with science forever. So I was thinking, you know, career, you absolutely have to go and do something with a job at the end of it, do something to find, you know, I have to do something with a good title on it. Took these electives and in entrepreneurship as kind of keep myself interested, you know, just
Marcus (04:47)
been fascinating.
And then I.
Marcus (05:06)
You know something to be a little bit more fun while I was trying to do my nanoscience degree and.
Marcus (05:12)
I just, I always knew that I loved science, but business, I already knew that I had.
Marcus (05:16)
make a lot more sense. I knew that
a scientific mind, at least the I love how it's all cut. I love the scientific problem. You know, I love that there's proof behind everything. But once I discovered that in business, you can apply the systems with a little, you know, with a little taking the world for what it is taking the human condition for what it is. And I realized that
Marcus (05:23)
The interest for it, love the systems. ⁓
same flexibility
Marcus (05:45)
systems do work, they're just much more difficult to implement. And you have to sort of, I call it respecting the market, you have to respect the market with anything you put out. Once I realized that, I don't know, I was hooked. I didn't even finish the nanoscience program, I ended up going to work for incubators and trying out my own my own platforms, for better or for worse. I think it's been for better, you know, after about 15 years of playing in it. But I started
Marcus (06:03)
Later.
I started with
Marcus (06:14)
systems and then I working
Marcus (06:15)
thing.
Marcus (06:17)
for different startups and different businesses and a few really creative mentors just helped me channel that, you know, almost open it up into the creativity. But I think it was the right order, you know, lets me come with systems first so you don't come in with a business to pie in the sky and you get to play with it and see how much creativity you can put in while keeping that system alive. That's question.
Marcus (06:20)
you
I'm in first.
Bernie (06:41)
So the growth operating system, that's it almost sounds like an OS operating system off of a box, like, know, whether you're buying it from Windows or Apple, what is the growth operating system? What's up? Talk to me, tell us a story, give us us insights.
Marcus (07:00)
⁓ thank you. So I, you know, I was born in the startup world in automation and marketing with sales mixed in. mean, I I'm a salesperson first. So I was very used to speaking to people face to face, you know, I just having to close your own deals and then get into marketing. It's like more expansive sales, you know, you get to spread messages, you get to put more data to it, you get to digitize it. The growth operating system
Marcus (07:15)
Getting in
across wider range.
Marcus (07:27)
It started as more a service because coming out of the startup world, when Minds on Fire started, since we came out of sales, marketing and product design, we were working all with entrepreneurs and all around Southern Ontario to begin, you know, out of Communitech, Cognition Factory, WeTech Alliance, and then a few in between. We started getting a little more international, which was a lot of fun. We've been to the East a couple of times, so organizing pitch competitions down to the States.
Marcus (07:43)
in a big bag.
between.
you know, leave.
Marcus (07:57)
They started out as us figuring out automation for people. You know, there were, it started siloed systems and especially when you're around startups and incubators, you're always trying out new platforms all over the place. So we got into integrations. So we started out early, you know, before Zapier came in and made it way too easy and made me hate that it didn't exist 15 years ago. We started out with, was a very packed together, you know,
Marcus (07:57)
Growth Operating Sys
Marcus (08:25)
will have different systems that we put together. Now, especially since the pandemic, we still have marketing and digital services that we provide for people, but now we've gotten into building our own platforms. AI has helped us, you know, it helps you really, I'd say, so I don't like to focus too much on it. I like to have a core functionality that still affects, touches people and really aligns with what people need, but they
Marcus (08:29)
Fast forward a bunch of years, especially
government.
and
the crack.
growth
Marcus (08:55)
operating system then became in a sense, you know, all
Marcus (08:55)
integration integrating
Marcus (08:59)
your marketing, all of your lead generation, your email marketing, your nurturing campaigns, weaving them together. And now we're starting to build this for larger companies in their specific industries. So now we can build a platform that is, you know, a CRM, RP, as well as automation, all build in one bill for your industry bill for your specific use case.
Marcus (09:07)
Starting this.
Now
and ER.
on
And so.
Marcus (09:24)
We are still trying to figure out how to make the universal growth operating system for absolutely everybody. But so far, there still needs to be a little bit of customization for each group that we come in with. And so right now we're building, you know, we have one that we're experimenting with on general intelligence. This will be to entrepreneurs that is trained on conversations that entrepreneurs have with each other and mentors so that we can help people design ideas in the first place.
Marcus (09:34)
to my
Marcus (09:53)
That's more on an intellectual idea growth operating system. But more tangibly, we're building in FinTech. We have one that's going to combine mutual funds, ETFs, stock trading into an intelligence system with algorithms backed in trying to really put some powerful tools into the finance world. We have other ones in trades. So we're building for landscaping as well as plumbing, electrical and mechanical right now.
Marcus (09:55)
Yeah
You know,
gives
one in
and industries
Marcus (10:22)
We're trying to capture different in those
Marcus (10:25)
and silo.
Marcus (10:26)
that make sense. So we have a few clients that have to be our core partners. We build these systems for certain industries, which I'm excited about. I just came from speaking with our plumbing contractor who's in GC and mechanical electrical. We're going to take over trades at this platform. absolutely can't wait. And then on the FinTech side, that's one we're really launching into.
Marcus (10:29)
I'm in.
Marcus (10:50)
There is, I would say two levels, you know, for companies that are.
Marcus (10:52)
do it. ⁓
Marcus (10:57)
Operating
system is that quilt of current AI of CRMs of automation software that you put together, which we can integrate and have all talk to each other. And the enterprise, what we're really trying to run with where bring a company in who wants to invest in a platform for themselves. And then they get to be that kind of that prime user of this platform and really have a design for them to connect in their industry. So hope that was clear.
Marcus (11:06)
And then version is.
We
It's a few pieces.
Wayne (11:24)
Yeah.
Bernie (11:26)
No, was really, really extensively good. Sorry, Wayne, go ahead.
Wayne (11:30)
This is exciting. And I've seen people on this journey, including that let's spend a half million dollars and deliver no product whatsoever because we got lost.
Marcus (11:41)
that's blasphemy. That's blasphemy. You can't do that anymore.
Wayne (11:45)
Here's a question. Is part of the dream to work out the kinks with an enterprise system and then make it generic enough to white label it for a $99 solution to anyone with a Best Buy account or no?
Marcus (11:59)
Wayne, you're so smart. Love your questions.
Marcus (11:59)
Oh, I love your questions.
So yes, you know, the idea started with would we be able to almost finish? That's really my absolute dream. And I want to say we're close, but that'd be a total lie. Every time we build out a piece of it, we realize there are gaping holes in it and different pieces and it's very
Marcus (12:04)
Dear Star
code ambition. mean that.
I mean, who could possibly code the human?
Marcus (12:24)
condition. I mean, that's, that's huge. I mean, for everything we see. So we, yeah, we are trying the new strategy we've taken is as we build these industry specific platforms, there are always more generic, more, you know, omnifunctional lessons that we learn. Or, you know, as working with landscaping, speaking to seeing overlap between the
Marcus (12:28)
you
I mean, even when we were the group and now the plumbing and contracting were tons of way
we can funnel. ⁓
Marcus (12:54)
acting employees the way we.
Their habits, the ways they work, you know, a different reporting and information that we pull on their behavior. There's are their own different they put through so long way to go, but absolutely. At the absolute. Want to build we would be able to. Work low that could be plugged into any business, any entry, you know, find the commonality.
Marcus (13:03)
behavior on different features, jobs, or tasks. So we have a lot. We have that.
Mr.
Marcus (13:23)
And then
I know that with how much, you know, landscaping and finance are never going to be similar enough that they'll buy the exact same platform. We see it as, as these different three platforms that may be able to draw out AI platform, something that's a universal integrator between different platforms that speak to different industries. So a lot of, a lot of work to do a lot of
Marcus (13:31)
But as we build the industry, we may be in a, you know, maybe.
Marcus (13:48)
with a lot of way to go still on that side. But yeah, that's absolutely where we're looking to go eventually.
Bernie (13:53)
As you were describing that, do you remember Clippy? Okay, your physiological response was, yes, I do. you know, kind of a quirky character, right? And they had other icons in the platform. So are you looking to build not the OS, the operating system, but a platform that's kind of universal fit? You know, you see that in the email, you know, the spreadsheet, the database, you know, the, and the power.
slide deck, right? I'm trying to stay away from the brand names, right? Because, hey, if they're going to mention the name, you know, for a small dime, however that said, are you looking to build something that's kind of a universal fit? then, you know, if I happen to be working for an accounting firm, I tweak it this way. If I happen to working for a landscape, I tweak it that way. But you also mentioned, so it's a two-parter, you also mentioned something about behaviors.
and triggering it. are you also going to have a, it's almost like having a mini coach built in. know, someone encourages you to go, Hey, that's a good idea. Or, you know, the A team, like you've hit a KPI point, right? And like thumbs up or, you know, it's sort of like when you're typing into social media, certain platforms, you type in good morning and all of a sudden you have your, it's
where it's New Year's Day and you're typing a text message, all of sudden the stars explode. Are you going to build in those things that are like, hey, that's kind of cool and to tickle the inner soul and the ambition?
Marcus (15:24)
I mean, I want to say that.
Marcus (15:26)
⁓
But I mean, my mind is screaming at me right now. Market forces and the account generalists, we'd have to it. We'll obviously make it. Open AI already beat us to it. So I don't want to go competing against all the LLMs on the planet. We want to. We are trying to pull out these. Is the general piece of wisdom that we find and we do have an AI that we built.
Marcus (15:29)
just economy.
make it impossible. think
And we, I know, absolutely, I mean, general processes. ⁓
in the background
that applies it.
Marcus (15:57)
And we
run a report on it, you know, every couple months with any of the platforms that we're running, have a number of prompts built into it that will just try to all the industry data. We think we have. Thinking about information, you know, forget anything that could be related to this industry. Forget this, forget this to try to find commonalities in human nature. Now, so far that's only been beneficial for our own strategy.
Marcus (16:03)
We have lot of prompts that look to name.
platform.
Marcus (16:26)
stations on the next or,
you know, we'll see, have not had that aha moment yet where we think this is you can have to be sold to everybody and still unique to seem like a too simple of a solution or something that we just need to give out for free. So I don't know, I suspect in the end, we're going to say no to the generalist platform and just keep using it to build smarter systems in each category in each industry that we have.
Marcus (16:34)
Unique.
enough not
Marcus (16:55)
That has been very effective for us. mean, that has already applied to, we have the fintech, escaping, they informed each other now that we're back space that landscaping data for me. So I think if I'm being totally honest and realistic, it'll end up being a cool, really sneaky Intel platform that we have for ourselves, but not a product.
Marcus (17:01)
the platforms building after land.
is absolutely infuriating that.
Wayne (17:21)
Marcus, in my 400 episodes of podcasting is that a great deal of solopreneurs are actually truly technicians at heart. They got to sign the door with their name on it. But they're, you know, they have 15 employees, five bus, five vans, and they're still wearing a tool belt. I could see you designing a system that you know why they need it, how it will benefit them.
and they will actually die kicking and screaming before you let them implement it. Tell me about that mindset.
Marcus (17:55)
⁓ my god.
Marcus (17:55)
my gosh,
it's like you were just at my last meeting. I absolutely
Wayne (18:00)
HAHAHAHA
⁓
Bernie (18:01)
The customer is in a headlock at the same time. He's going, no, you must drink from the water here.
Marcus (18:07)
I know, I... my gosh, let me even think. I better answer than the one I tried to cram into the conversation, sorted out the last time.
Marcus (18:12)
I'm trying to come up with a.
Alright.
I'm not sure. I think we built Zout.
Marcus (18:21)
think that as these
the only way that we've been able to move someone on to a CRM, especially when they're a smaller company.
Marcus (18:32)
I wanna say it's to f-
Marcus (18:33)
force it on them. mean, we've had a few activate the option. So our sort of quick way of getting through that, you know, sometimes, you know, even I'll get on a call with a client, and especially when it's trades, it's about 5050. Like where they say they just know it can't help them. There's absolutely no way I if they're over 40, I might hear that you can't teach an old dog nutrition line or something like that, which I always find hilarious. I think that
Marcus (18:35)
you where we'll just act automation. But this is our
Climb.
Bye.
Marcus (19:03)
As it gets the automations become more invisible, even more and more invisible that will happen. And what I'm trying to do, especially now that we're getting more committed to the trades, like now that the landscaping is rolling, we're looking at more trades and spreading out. I think we're just going to dip the system in and you know, you put in your profile, you start entering your. This is one thing that we're already trying landscaping because we're just based
Marcus (19:13)
Head into the.
now the. On that side, I think.
haven't turned on automatically.
jobs. is with the platform, leaking
it in our platform. What we
Marcus (19:32)
into the entire. We have found that gets us around this
is, know, when someone says, don't want the CRM where we've been able to sneak it in behind is with reporting. So what we do, everybody loves reports, you know, all these owners and trades, they all comes down to square images, linear, you know, it all comes down to your P and L. So they love the data. That is one thing that I find there quicker to adopt. If we tell them we have reports,
Marcus (19:39)
the AI or I don't want.
Marcus (20:00)
then they love it. And we tell them we have AI and automation. They tell us why there's no way it'll help in no way they need it, which I think is funny. think they're just like, they're trying to sell a little bit against all the new terminology. So what we've done is we bake it into the reporting where you have your reporting, it's analyzing off the data that you give off. And we have, we try to put in as many touch points that are automated.
Marcus (20:09)
about
in places off timing off your expense.
met made
it as possible. know, when we
Marcus (20:28)
for the landscaping platform. Owners will assign technicians, but then technicians don't have to do GPS pings, signs them into the app, starts the report, it lists them on the invoice. Would they may still need to take a few pictures, things like that, we're all gathering data. Then we have that in reporting. We have a good, a great system for prompting people to run reports in different pieces of information.
Marcus (20:32)
a job to their
Once they show up on site, then.
We make sure we're automatic.
Marcus (20:56)
And then we just. it's back. You know, we found that your projects are taking a.
Marcus (20:57)
not AI inside into them.
over the last two months.
Marcus (21:07)
found
that this and we're very sensitive to these pieces if we get into employee comparison, our employee comparison, but you know, we'll say like this team is doing better than this one. You know, this one is a little more efficient. This one's spending more, that's the best I've got for you so far is that we just bake it into the platform and sort of force them to use it in a way that makes it feel fun and good to use. I think that's absolutely changing. I mean, we're all surrounded by different applications.
Marcus (21:35)
all the time, I'm sure that... I mean, even manufacturing is starting to do tech.
Marcus (21:37)
I'll have to get on the band-
everybody will get there eventually. But that's the best way to try to make it invisible and just show them the benefit first and then if they start playing with a more great, you know, we think. Or it's giving up insight.
Marcus (21:45)
God. We try
If not, figure they'll come around eventually once those are.
Bernie (21:56)
So when you come up to a company, I guess what is the trigger for them? What is the, oh my gosh, I'm hitting the wall here. If you have one piece of software running, it's not such a big deal, but as soon as you add in the accounting package, which depending on the size of your business and who you're dealing with for an accounting agency, like for bookkeeping and stuff like that, and all of a sudden you gotta start tracking staffing.
Right. So there's an HR component, right? All of a sudden you realize these things are coming at you. What is the flag that most turns most people's heads come to you? Whether it's the, whether it's the trades person or someone who's a coach, you know, if, they, sometimes you know what you need. Sometimes you have no idea what you need, but you need something, you know, you, you, there's something, there's some sort of pain that's showing up.
What are those pains looking like for those folks?
Marcus (22:55)
That's a good question. No, let me think through. mean I, there's always a ton of consultation. As soon as you come into it. I, I love to talk, like so I
Marcus (23:02)
share.
And
I'm a very curious person.
Marcus (23:09)
I usually find that
Marcus (23:11)
Especially, you know, we're talking about
Marcus (23:13)
how
people don't always want to adopt it or they don't quite know what they need. I've, as soon as you talk about actual vision they have for the people, it will pop into their minds along the way. Even if I meet them initially, I have my hearing aid, can't hear could you possibly?
Marcus (23:18)
find as you talk to someone about the actual business, the idea
way. If I need someone that says, I see ⁓ what we do,
how could this be any better? think I'm already saying I don't even have to challenge them in a way, you know, like a sneaky marketing. ⁓ And just talk to them about you start this in the first place. Did you see this business as being in the future? Because as soon you get someone thinking about
Marcus (23:37)
that
You know what?
As soon I think about
the actual dream that they had.
Marcus (23:57)
to build
this and the serious vision of it. And the AI and automation.
Marcus (24:01)
I comes
extremely clearly to them because as soon as you talk about the you ask one more question about.
Marcus (24:06)
vision and then
how's the business going today? It's like someone you finally got them looking at and now they have to remember all the clouds and obstacles and buildings in the way of them getting there. find that's typically where the conversation. Once you have someone just tell you, know can do this. We know we could do it better. want to go in this direction getting there. And then you show them a tools and
Marcus (24:13)
Their horizon. Bill.
Want to go fraction but we're not.
future and
how it could fit into their lives.
Marcus (24:36)
Usually they're willing to buy one,
then they try two, then they try three. That's why as we build, we still have our toolkit of individual bits and pieces so that we can sort of ease people into it.
Marcus (24:41)
I hope these growth operating system.
if they're not quite ready to take on the full piece.
Marcus (24:51)
I find it's just bringing people back looking at and then letting them just think through any things are in the way and can pull
Marcus (24:53)
to that vision and that Verizon that they're looking at.
through how showing them you some
pathways through to get them there faster.
Wayne (25:03)
Marcus, I feel like I've fallen in love, but that's another story. I find many tradespeople, especially owner manager tradespeople, are much happier working in their business than on their business.
And I was wondering, and maybe it's a little weird and there's little, you know, there's little hanging fruit to get into the door. But if you were using an avatar that was an employee, if you were creating someone who actually had a face in this, um, LLM, what would the ideal avatar be eliminating for the, let's say 20 person plumber firm? Middle management?
Marcus (25:45)
And like, commentary.
Marcus (25:45)
You
mean like our ideal profile?
Marcus (25:48)
like that kind
Wayne (25:50)
So if you told them that you hired, that you were an employee, that you were an employee, you employed people and you were an employee and that your people were actually robots, but you didn't tell them they were robots, what positions would they be applying for in your business?
Marcus (26:08)
Could the robots even be managed? Like, I don't know.
Bernie (26:13)
Well, according to our most recent report on AI, apparently it doesn't like being told it's going to be turned off. It can nived the mishappenstance of the person that was to do it. They were doing a test on all the platforms, not just one.
Marcus (26:30)
I hear you. You know, that's interesting. You say I read an article, I think it was only a couple of weeks ago that they put a test environment of several robot workers and the manager started convincing the other robots to take a break earlier. Like they actually figured out they started trying to convince its employees under this management robot that they should stop working. I don't know. mean, you know, I think because
Marcus (26:36)
A
I feel like
Marcus (26:58)
And there's a kind of two ways we could go with this. mean, there's, you know, I net where these robots are seriously conscious and can run off on you if you don't say the same, the right thing the whole time. And then there's, know, how we hope it goes and everything's programmed within within a box. And there's the, robot. Most of the things I think if that does go as far as I know it will, because there are crazy human beings out there who just love innovation way too much.
Marcus (27:01)
Let's go.
box laws and all.
Marcus (27:26)
I think that that person brought in under that team of robots, both the fine employee and the director. I think it would be showing those actual work they were supposed to do that would train them to be the best.
Marcus (27:32)
They would be from a because robots, the act.
possible. Oddly thinking about
Marcus (27:46)
that
I think, you know, and when the robots aren't around, I'd make sure to build that person up. director of sales, you know, director of implementation. I love it. You know, you're up at the top and when a robots in the room, it's like, you better have a tool belt on and some steel toes at all. We're going to have to train them what they need to do, rather than train them what a manager is. I think it'll be totally backwards, you know, from how we manage people today. That's an interesting question.
Marcus (28:01)
times like
Bernie (28:12)
So when you walk up into a business and they're kind of working along, so in other words, they do their accounting, again, going back to the trades person, they have their accounting piece, they have their supplier piece, they have their workforce, et cetera, out they go. And you come along and you provide them an ecosystem that breathes and lives the business. In other words, just in time delivery,
the staffing's in place, cost impact, linear cost, cost per square foot, right? Either to do ⁓ a project estimate and production, getting the work done. Are you on target? Are there ways to save things, Whether it's a different product, different staff, whatever the case is, do you find when you bring that whole bundle into that space, or it's manufacturing, or it's a dentist's office,
that they now have standard operating procedures that are embedded, that they have a, their business has just increased in value because the system is well-defined. Well, know, like in other words, if someone comes in, the bank says, you know, you want to expand, you're for capital or you're looking for more capital from the bank, from a lender or venture capital, whatever the case might be. Do you find that provides?
a larger bonus to the owner, especially if they're looking at, know, it's not going to be a generational thing. I'm to look to do this for 20 years. And then I went off off the merry-go-round.
Marcus (29:42)
100 % that I, I lovely brought that up. You know, some of partners, you know, apart from just how we generate leads through some are referred to you can really find.
Marcus (29:47)
our best referral partner.
Girls are still my favorite piece because you can really see
the intention of people. You know, that's my favorite people. That's my favorite way to find
Marcus (30:01)
a new client, new prospect that we have. I have business in the owner was it has a system can absolutely.
Marcus (30:03)
new conversation. Have never heard. Trades being sold for anywhere near what the. Run.
The same way that it did without that. Now exit plan is ⁓ &A finance these are area I love speaking with people and fine. is. So into these two things. Because we just work. We say system to.
Marcus (30:17)
Banner.
I mean, even why we much. So well together as soon as we.
Marcus (30:30)
business owner that's on their own. Maybe they get it, maybe they don't. They usually say they do, but then you know it all changes in execution implementation. When we come to someone in finance, they know a system is the number one every time. Now I'm not going to try to make up a number on how much more you're worth once you get a growth system in. guarantee
Marcus (30:31)
off
thing.
that would be misingenuous, but Aaron
E at the very least.
Marcus (30:57)
if you do not have
a system plugging these different pieces together. The difference is necessarily what you are worth. It's whether you are sellable or not. Someone comes in and they look at your business, $10 million and they ask you, you do it and you show them piles of paper and that one person for minimum wage knows this system. One person who's your head of all of your plumbing operations knows one system.
Marcus (31:01)
isn't early.
at all.
how you
As soon as
they can picture a single person leaving with some collapse, they're done. Put on it. At least my experience.
Marcus (31:27)
people per se leaving and seeing that system. It doesn't matter what word you put because from experience seeing in the startup world watching companies get acquired with
investors even dealing with a lot of pitch competitions without a system. It as this absolute waiting to fail, you know, maybe pile of money because as soon as they feel like it's based on people, it's you or
Marcus (31:52)
full weather or
a
Marcus (31:54)
certain
individual in the company or one crew, one team, it's basically not sellable unless you find someone who's absorbing you for assets and inventory and know, bit of. You know, anyone that wants to see a multiplier to have anybody come into your business and not just look at. Years minus some depreciation and then try to back you up at the knees for your valuation. That system lets you have a complete different conversation.
Marcus (31:56)
or one. Basically, unless.
capacity.
for the last two years.
the hat down.
completely different
conversation.
Marcus (32:22)
You
know, rather than trying to come up with just your finances and prove that you have a number of clients, suddenly you can have the we're scalable, rep revenue, it's repeatable, it's predictable. As soon as you do that, you talk multiple instead of talking about this order of this only one year of this, it completely changes the conversation and the system on its own. You know, we still have to prove that the business is working, but if
Marcus (32:37)
suppliers in about half of the.
Peace out.
But
Marcus (32:51)
business
has sold anything consistently years then system learning within the breadth of capabilities that we and the technology available now are shameless plug we do this share but even with tools that people can find themselves you just need to glue those people together and suddenly even a business only doing a few hundred million a year becomes available even
Marcus (32:53)
for several years. There is already a system working on that. And what the
teams, you
and you know a selling at
a multiple to the right buyer I mean I yeah absolutely this is a lot of strengths
Marcus (33:23)
some puzzle.
Wayne (33:26)
The most famous example of this happening externally, I think, are vet clinics where Dr. Marcus Vett is being replaced by Dr. Vett Corp across Canada that puts the systems in place. And every now and again, the customer grumbles.
but the vet's much happier because he can actually work 30 hours a week instead of 70. Are these electricians and plumbers going to need basically corporate managers to buy them out over five years to make this happen? Are these guys going to get their own so they're driving their own bus on the way out the door?
Marcus (34:07)
it definitely gives both options. I mean, it's sellable, the only reason now it's much easier to can focus on growing it because
Marcus (34:08)
you makes you reason that it's sellable is because there's
always sort of a control panel you know you're still seeing your data still seeing your scorecard seeing all the data visualized on the
Marcus (34:21)
dashboards, you're still seeing all this on whatever
piece of the platform we build it in for you, typically on a dashboard. Some people like to customize it into their CRM or what have you. There are some that especially for those, if they're absolutely die hard, they don't want to take that tool belt off ever around that.
Marcus (34:34)
No, I think
especially in the trade side, you know, if there's.
at like they're going into the toolkit
on then okay, so be it you can still sell the business keep yourself in take the corporate manager maybe don't know growth operating system.
Marcus (34:56)
talk to them too often and whatnot but it's
not it's not with solely acquisition in mind just give you options you know you for the rest of your life have a system fire you to stay at the office until 9
Marcus (35:04)
in mind, it's more to give. You can keep on tools life if you want, but have some that just doesn't require NPM
doing all the paperwork or trying to sort through your day or it really whatever you need. If you want to stay business, it's freedom. If you want the potential to ever exit, if you want to get to your generation, another thing to do is you know, if you're an electrician, you're going to
Marcus (35:16)
everyone spent that it's easy. And ⁓ want to exit the business it gives you
it's our next job. It's a no-teach job. You can't
minus your children's job sites. Well, okay. Our short answer works and give them a username and password and then they can help. It's a
Marcus (35:34)
on job, okay, spend one hour showing them how the system ⁓ works. There you go. Like
apprenticeship expanded into running a business at the same time as learning the actual skill, you know, and execution of the job. I love that I'm coming into AI when we are and that we've gotten to play with the Those the questions it gives you.
Marcus (35:50)
job. So I don't know.
They're from the V.
Wayne (35:59)
I think mostly of Mr. Rooter, one of the few companies that use these systems and marketing to make it a franchise. Do you see Phil Electrical sort of mentally deciding their franchise, whether they actually do the paperwork or not, so that they can actually sell it to the new guy, whether lead hand or someone off the street, like it was a franchise?
Marcus (36:23)
That's a good- Bye.
Marcus (36:24)
question. I'm a little biased
only because we've worked with a few franchises who have won mergers and acquisitions over year. And they've only told me mostly nightmare stories of trying to start a franchise. So I think I'd even back up a little bit and say from my perspective, it's very expensive, very legally strenuous to build one or even attempt to build one. I would even say that
Marcus (36:28)
through partner that we have here.
Thanks.
Marcus (36:52)
this could the franchise model. I mean, instead of having to spend a hundred, $200,000 on all the legal work, all of trying to define what the restrictions are, where these lie, what you can, what you can't do. Technology holds that you need. I mean, we had user permissions for, I mean, CRMs that have been around 10, 15 years. It's, I would say with this ability where you can easily
Marcus (36:54)
may comprise of all obsolete.
all the liabilities.
give all the
I
Marcus (37:22)
You know, we can go to a we can go to one of our platforms, we can go to Zapier, we can just duplicate, duplicate, duplicate, duplicate, suddenly re-create your business model and entire workflow and entire business in literally 30 seconds on the same license that you started it with. And then you could sell that to someone with a simple agreement just to, you know, on protecting IP, you know, maybe an NDF service agreement.
Marcus (37:24)
go high levels.
which is.
something you've created and
low tire structure of a business.
so
So I
Marcus (37:53)
I it will allow more franchises. I
think the way franchising is done today may be made even more than what we can do.
Marcus (38:01)
obsolete by do
now with automation replication.
Bernie (38:04)
you've talked to, well, we touched on it, incubators and accelerators. That's way different than tool belts, electrical panels, and, look, my toilet isn't toileting at this point in time. So in the incubator world, how does this whole approach help? Let's say a person's launching a new SaaS, a software as a service, and they found a market that says, we need this.
Do you help them deliver it? Do you help them integrate it? Like, where do you come into this? Where do you come into this box? Because, yeah, I'm going to let you talk. Because I have more questions that can spin off of this, but over to you.
Marcus (38:49)
I love it. mean, I know we
Marcus (38:51)
did
incubators and accelerators selling. We keep that outlet because it's very near and dear to my. I came up out of, which is like the coolest incubator and accelerator, I think in Canada, like out of Kitchener. I remember I was 18. I already had all of this ambition, but I didn't know where to put it. And like,
Marcus (38:55)
I hate ⁓
that's I mean, I communitech absolute
said I thought
Marcus (39:17)
is
going to control my own hours and I'll be the boss and entrepreneurship will be so cool. I'll get to build things all day. And when I walked into Communitech for the first time,
Marcus (39:26)
I'm realizing
that there was actually a place. Sit protected in. Coach and.
Marcus (39:29)
where people could insulated train.
Ported by each other and these people above them to build ideas. I mean that was the first thing that ever set.
Marcus (39:41)
my mind on honestly, I love that. I asked absolutely crucial. Now that we've now that we have the time. He said,
Marcus (39:43)
I absolutely love it. Testing different apps is absolutely fruitful. that we've gotten up to speed, we have the capacity and the time to try different pieces.
And also knowing that we'd already worth a trillion dollars now if we could just pick the best so immediately and deploy them right away. So I see sort of a way of us to keep it back and forth. You know, when we work with incubators and accelerators,
Marcus (39:57)
You know,
stops.
You know, as sort of the way
work within.
Marcus (40:12)
We come to them with technologies, because yeah, that's beyond what they're looking for. It's very, when we go into them, we've, we kept it broken down pieces. You know, we'll, we're usually, you know, go to market strategy, go to market testing, we'll try a bit of marketing and then automate it so that it's cheaper for the entrepreneur. So that's a bit of a different one. You know, that, that service, a bit of a standalone,
Marcus (40:14)
And not the full growth set. That's, know, it goes. It's not necessary.
broken down in individual.
calling
We'll try to out an author for the on.
it says.
Marcus (40:42)
from what we do with growth systems, only standalone of it isn't the same service that we're offering. Connected because we're adding products into our kind of mid-level system out of these incubators all. So my goal of it is that we come to the working space, we offer them packages of
Marcus (40:43)
operating system.
own in terms of. They're both extremely.
service before you get into the whole. All the time.
These coworkers, incubators, accelerators, we are packaging some of our more piecemeal
offerings and systems that we have that these entrepreneurs will see and think, ⁓
Marcus (41:12)
because we know on you
know, that'll get me to my first sale that'll get over this hurdle that means that'll let me develop this MVP so I can still go bang on everyone's door and try to figure out how to sell it. And then as we build them and we get them to the point where they get that first, where they get your MVP, distant client, then we almost the ability to,
Marcus (41:18)
meal.
Last little piece of
I don't want to
give back.
Marcus (41:40)
Like, we don't do it for free, offering the whole thing, like, just to...
Marcus (41:42)
bring the,
you know, be honest, but it is still a way for us. You know, you're not actual.
Marcus (41:48)
almost beat that next marketing channel. We support younger, young like age, but just young in the process
entrepreneurs. If we can first spark for them, then the chance to see if they can launch their product into bigger and more marketing to see if they can, if they find something they never expected. So these groups, we love it because it has entrepreneurs
Marcus (42:00)
be that they get
product, batter markets, know.
us working with these groups. It helps the others.
helps those accelerators stay relevant. then it becomes almost
Marcus (42:18)
incubators and stay on the cutting edge and start
testing grounds while we still go to meet the large companies. So that's where maybe it's just through me that I'm like obsessed with staying in touch with incubators and accelerators because I love that space but it has paid dividends. mean I'd say this year we have least four systems that have come out of us help
Marcus (42:26)
and chase these large platforms, you know, up in medium to scale.
connects.
We're a leader in new cities. We're
Marcus (42:47)
that are
Marcus (42:48)
integrator a growth operating system.
Marcus (42:52)
multiple others. Lane, it's a way of us to just keep sharp, keep our industry well.
Marcus (42:56)
ourselves or you know our thumb on the pulse of the we
go off and try to build these you know absolute world
Marcus (43:02)
Domination
machines in every industry.
Wayne (43:06)
Marcus, I have a shameless plug that you may already do, but in knife insurance they used to sell it by actually parking the hearse at the door.
Marcus (43:17)
I did not know they did that. She pretty close.
Wayne (43:20)
But the neat thing is you have, I would call them coaches, you have coaches who actually sell operating systems, SOPs, as the way to get the lead hands or the kid in the business. And often there is a CRM or an operating system component. Unless you put these in place,
⁓ We're calling the auctioneer tomorrow if you have a stroke or who does the handholding when you get a yes. Is that your team or is that a team of coaches that work with you? Who gets the guy to sort of replaces middle management with systems when it's very hands-on, takes nine to 18 months
Even if you get the software sale, who does the implementing of that handholding?
Marcus (44:16)
in terms of when we're talking
Marcus (44:17)
to a client about a system they may want to bring in.
Marcus (44:19)
And
know, along the process, if these forms, I like to stay involved in that piece, you know, when platform or actually, I mean,
Marcus (44:21)
with laugh.
It's a new launching into a new industry,
apart from the fact that that's just really what the business was born to do. If I don't do that, I don't know what I'm doing here. Like I feel like I'll be just going on vacation. No, I that's favorite part of the process. mean, because when we go into for a platform and it's you're absolutely right. There are months that it takes, you know, we have different infrastructure
Marcus (44:39)
or something like that. That's not fair. My absolute process.
new company look.
structures.
Marcus (44:55)
We
have base functionality and different components that we, you know, we own so we can white label to sort of speed up the process here and there. That's me as well as my, whoever it takes, you know, my designer coder, we have a company that we partner with on the more complicated systems architecture when it comes in. There are always other people in on that call, but that's hard. You know, that's the conversation that I want to be, be in. That's my.
Marcus (45:03)
I love that.
designer, my lead
Comp
But
that's.
Marcus (45:24)
That's
probably a quarter of my week is just I have with our latest handful of clients that we're bringing on and we're talking through it. We're testing.
Marcus (45:27)
weekly calls that I.
Marcus (45:34)
We're thinking where they'll fit in, where we integrate the does this model or something we can recycle. It's in those conversations as we work through the process, as we learn, as we brainstorm and expand on it. Now that's this kind of our dream, having this universal intelligence system that we can build. That's where we pull those little nuggets. You know, it's those
Marcus (45:51)
back. ⁓
Marcus (46:00)
derivatives of the linear information that you're speaking with, but people out in these conversations where I host and pull the most insight and where we may have. When we, when we take the product and center their weekly, bi-weekly, whatever the best that we can do, because very real, the big thing I've ever learned being in entrepreneurship since I was 18,
Marcus (46:04)
about I think I learned them up.
Why that to all platform? No, he take on a new project. I'm front. No.
it has to be.
trying so many ideas
absolutely always they all die ever I'm playing against the mark mark right
Marcus (46:30)
that the market is right. I will never ever ever come against the market ever. And I say that to like the gods, you know, so they don't me
down. That is the most important thing ever. You know, with it, it will always take some testing experimentation, because it will always at the end of the day come down to people and behavior and that human condition again. So no, that's, that's the funnest and most important piece of
Marcus (46:45)
always
for watching.
at
all. I like to be building the platform and then as it takes delegated signs, yeah, I love that child. We're building.
Marcus (47:00)
be front and center while we're doing that hand pull through.
shape you know you certain team take over different pieces but being in that brain brainstorm room for whatever
Bernie (47:18)
Two quick last questions here. One, the AI, the LLM, Large Language Model, is that something that resides in your space behind your four walls? Is that something resides on the store within the shop's four walls, or is that in the cloud, like chat, GPT? And the second part to this is how long does it take when someone says,
I got my toolkit here. I've got my crew of 10 and Marcus you're it. How long does it take to go from you're it to you know, wheels up and you're in the air.
Marcus (47:50)
I love it.
Marcus (47:51)
So when, especially when there's some urgency to it, you know, they say we have a problem right from leakage. have a, we know we go right to our tool, onto building larger platforms. So let's say they speak to me in the morning. We're on the phone. We're on a meeting by if we can, right. Maybe whatever works best for us. Then we recommend a tool, you know, whether it's an integration into their current CRM, if it's a
Marcus (47:56)
now either we have some need out okay you know not loud I get that call
that day and help it you know why not right now why not in an hour lunch or
Enter CRM.
Marcus (48:21)
themselves
if it's that they need some, some automation and marketing, if it's nourishment, whatever it is that they feel they need or productivity. We know what that is by the end of the, you know, by the end I've told them at least a list of what we think we're going to do. This is what we recommend. Are you good? Okay. get second day. We have at least one, two, three of those systems, permissions, their users, everybody already on the
Marcus (48:26)
if it's communicate.
that day by the evening.
going to the man the go ahead by the end of the second
I've got a, I have.
Marcus (48:52)
And it's, but we're very, we're fortunate enough to have them back in designers, integrators.
have people that can go on to down and integrate if that's the way that we want to go. And if we do get into a full platform, so I'd say two, three, four days that we could help that company really get into an integration automation flow. Then let's say a year goes by,
Marcus (49:02)
get all their zaps.
Class.
out
They're massively
growing. From five people. One. Year. Because.
Marcus (49:21)
We have one client that went from people to 31 employees over a year with the systems that we put in place because they
just, not only because it eliminated a lot of admin, but because they got extremely, became a game. know, now all of this time to just focus on driving forward, I'd say that's even one of the biggest benefits of it is you realize
Marcus (49:33)
confident like it came they had all
I
How much time you spend throughout a
Marcus (49:48)
day when you don't have a system, worrying about being a system worried what you're losing because not having that system, doing things two, three, four times because you don't have the system, we find the except only quickly. with our days and these operating systems, depends how complex they are. mean, even this landscaping cloud that we did, which is a few months, a few months,
Marcus (49:51)
either need
I'm not
Accelerate extremely. Automations are in Growth operating.
Marcus (50:17)
that we implement right away. start with the core, that reporting data collection, then we build in whatever modules they feel the need right away. It's on tracking, invoicing, payments, making sure that that core lifeblood of the business is really rolling. And then it's fun, like they are getting the benefits from it right away as we click in better employee hours, know, more advanced reporting, maybe a
Marcus (50:26)
usually drop jobs.
or like.
and you can start.
chat while messaging,
Marcus (50:46)
system as it gets in
Marcus (50:47)
put in these.
Marcus (50:48)
pieces. I don't know, we're starting to pretty good at this stuff. Like it's you know, days to a couple of weeks and we got systems rolling for companies that let them grow within weeks and months.
Marcus (50:58)
after
that.
Wayne (50:59)
Marcus, you mentioned Kitchener-Waterloo, and I'm guessing that you're not far from GTA, Greater Toronto, but we're also on Zoom, and there may be landscapers in Phoenix that need your call. How big a area do you want to work geographically, and how do we get a hold of you?
Marcus (51:18)
I love it. Thank you for that. Waited a few times over the years.
Marcus (51:20)
We have worked across, we fluctuate, tried
a few things out. We started in Southern Ontario, we branched out to regional and the state. were to briefly when we were doing competitions and really supporting a number of entrepreneurs. We're in the UK, the least a couple of years in Australia. Right now, it's focused in US.
Marcus (51:30)
We got international. A lot of pitch comp.
middle of couple times. We are absolutely best to take on Canada.
Marcus (51:49)
across
Canada as well as clients. have partners as far down as Texas and California, US. I can absolutely see systems we can to build the repeatability. That comes next, we can help them just the same. Similar architectures, similar flows. We're going to see the same sort of life that they're having just in a different place, you know, a slightly different demographic and target.
Marcus (51:55)
Absolutely say what this we have the scale. Me and Phoenix. They're going to be on.
like.
and how they get ahold of us.
Marcus (52:16)
MindsOnFire.ca, that is our website. Always email me directly, Marcus, M-A-R-C-U-S at MindsOnFire.ca. Now I love taking on the owners personally. get to know them and I'm happy to help. We want to set as many minds on fire as we possibly can.
Marcus (52:20)
and they can all track.
like new company. I love to know them myself so we really know where to them and send them. We'd be happy to help.
Bernie (52:39)
Marcus, want to say thank you so much for joining us today and sharing, you know, the wealth of knowledge, the opportunity that you're offering businesses to my cohost, Wayne Pratt. Thank you for being the cohost. You're the Knack 4 Business listeners. You know, thank you. And if you found this intriguing, if you found this like, holy shoot, I've got a tool belt, but you know, either you're getting tired of carrying the tool belt because you can lose like 30 pounds right off the bat or
or you're looking to make sure your business has a value that you can sell, or you're looking to grow it, right? And expand. Reach out to Marcus, because he's done everything from the marketing side to growing systems and integrating it. If AI scares you, well, you're already using AI every day. Between your phone and any of the devices in your house, you're already there. Let it, leverage it so that it works for you.
and it's controlled growth and you can scale.