Knack 4 Business

The Introvert Advantage | Close the Income Gap Without Faking Extroversion

Episode Notes

BUSINESS GROWTH PILLAR: Leadership & Operations

Core Focus: How Introverts Succeed in Business

Introverted professionals are often overlooked and underpaid—not because of talent, but because they were never taught how to communicate their value strategically.

Many people believe leadership belongs to the loudest voice in the room.

Gregory Weinger once believed that too.

Early in his career, he tried to act like an extrovert. He spoke more. Promoted himself more. Pushed harder in meetings. It worked—but it drained him.

Then he discovered something powerful:

Introversion is not a weakness. It is wiring.

In this episode of Knack 4 Business, Greg explains how introverts succeed in business by using their natural strengths. He shares the real difference between introversion and shyness, how energy management drives executive performance, and why preparation is a strategic advantage in leadership.

If you are an introverted professional, entrepreneur, or executive who feels unseen in meetings—or if you lead a team and want better results—this episode delivers practical tools for authentic leadership development.

KEY TOPICS COVERED:

• How introverts succeed in business without faking extroversion
• Introvert leadership skills and executive presence
• Closing the income gap through strategic communication
• Meeting management strategies that unlock better ideas
• Energy management for high-performance professionals
• Why introverts are underrepresented in senior leadership
• Authentic leadership vs performative extroversion

WHO THIS PODCAST IS FOR:

Startup founders, introverted professionals, solopreneurs, scaling business owners, and executive leaders seeking stronger communication and operational performance.

WHAT YOU WILL GAIN:

Actionable leadership strategies, structured communication tools, confidence-building frameworks, and practical ways to close the introvert income gap while staying authentic.

Episode Transcription

Bernie (00:05)

We have a question for you in the audience. Do you ever feel overlooked in your career because you're not the loudest voice in the room? That's exactly what Greg will tackle in this episode. He'll share how introverts can step into leadership, communicate with confidence, and grow their careers without faking extroversion.

If you've been waiting for permission to lead authentically, this conversation will show you the tools to do it and why your voice matters now more than ever. Our guest is

Greg Weinger from SheerID. Greg is the host of the powerful introvert podcast where he helps quiet leaders unlock confidence, strengthen communication, and grow their careers without pretending to be extroverts. Drawing on years of coaching, research, and conversations with leaders, he equips introverts with practical tools to thrive in leadership, close the income gap, and make their voices heard.

As an introvert himself, Greg proves to you you don't have to be the loudest in the room to make a lasting impact. Greg, it's an absolute pleasure to have you here. And do you have a favorite quote or saying you'd like to start us off with, sir?

Greg (01:09)

Sure, ⁓ Stephen Hawking likes to say that quiet people have the loudest minds.

Bernie (01:15)

is true especially when you're making a nuke that's pretty loud that's quite the sunshine

What made you realize being an introvert could be a strength and not a setback? What was the trigger event for you? How did that come about?

Greg (01:29)

Well, I have a particularly hard head. And so I spent the majority of my career in denial, ignoring all signs, basically pretending that I was an extrovert. Because I had this idea in my head that in order to be a leader, you had to be an extrovert. And so I wanted to be a leader. So I did everything in my power. Ivan.

Wayne (01:35)

And, know,

Greg (01:56)

I would take the tests, know, they give you like the disc and the Myers-Briggs. I would, you know, the first time around I got this result that said, I, like, what's I, like this introvert. And I started looking into it I was like, well, this seems bad. And so, so the next time that I had to take a test, you know, I looked at the answers and I was like, well, this is the answer an extrovert would give. So I faked all the results. So nobody would know.

I developed ways. I had feedback early on, like, well, you have the leader you have to do, you have to speak out and stand up, know, beat your chest, promote yourself, all these things. And so, you know, I kind of forced myself to do these things. And this worked, you know, eventually, you know, worked in my own way. I came up with other ways of doing things, but it wasn't until I was a senior leader reporting to a CEO on an executive team, I really started

Wayne (02:31)

and then, you know, then, you know.

⁓

things.

And

Greg (02:53)

I started struggling because everything in my career, I was a good student. was nerd. If I could study for the test, this was a test I couldn't study for. I couldn't study my way out of it. But I had some help of an amazing executive coach. He really helped me understand myself and gave me tools to deal with some of the most chaotic situations.

Wayne (02:55)

career.

you know, typical. ⁓

You know, I

And he

and

Greg (03:19)

that I could encounter. So I get on the other side of all this, have all the tools to work at this level. And then I've then, only then I came across this book. It was by Susan Cain, C-A-I-N. It's called Quiet, The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking. This book came out in 2012 and it changed my life. So I can tell you all the reasons why, but, and I'm not alone in this.

Wayne (03:22)

And you know, I'm,

Greg (03:47)

So this book has sold millions of copies. She has a Ted talk. It's amazing. Millions of people have watched it.

Wayne (03:53)

And

Greg (03:54)

I hear this consistently. So I have a podcast, the powerful introvert podcast you heard. So I talked to introverted leaders and speakers and people like this. Fairly common that reading that book transformed those people's lives, because it gave them an understanding, almost like an operating manual.

Wayne (04:00)

And I.

And it's.

Greg (04:13)

you're different. It's okay. Introverted people are super successful. Many, many, are. But they're doing it differently. So that's the turning point.

Wayne (04:14)

You know, that's and you know.

and

Bernie (04:24)

Well, for me it was I had to give a presentation on nonviolent crisis intervention to nursing staff in Ortega. You make a break pretty quick due to the crowd response. It's improv large.

I love it when people find beneath their skin where it works for them and they don't take someone else's labels as gospel and they grow with it. So congratulations.

Greg (04:46)

Yeah, thank you.

Bernie (04:46)

I've also been told they've done some studies and there's some people that fall happily in the middle that are introverted when appropriate and extroverted when appropriate and shame us both. Have you heard any of that?

Greg (05:00)

Absolutely. So there is a term, there's introverts, extroverts. Sometimes the people who fall in the middle are referred to as ambivert. You know, it's a continuum. So everybody's going to have and no extrovert. I've talked to plenty of extroverts who say, you know, sometimes I just need a day alone. You know, like I just need to spend time in my head and like, and does this mean I'm an introvert? And it's like, no, we all have, we all share.

Wayne (05:03)

You

Greg (05:29)

some of these qualities to ourselves and it's just in different degree.

Wayne (05:32)

and

Greg (05:34)

So it's really awareness about what are you feeling, what are you, that it's important. I kind of go to some of the definitions of introversion. We're talking about general tendencies. No one is wired all one way. Well, yeah, so you said earlier you're an extrovert, right?

Wayne (05:39)

you needing in the moment that's. And so.

And it's like.

No.

Greg (05:58)

that introverts fear you.

They shouldn't. ⁓ Introverts are people, we just tend to think first. Where is your energy flow? It's going inward. I'm feeling my feelings and going to my thoughts. I'm thinking first and figuring it out. And then I'm gonna say what I think. I'm coming up with what I say. But extroverts, they speak in order to think. They're thinking aloud more typically.

Wayne (06:08)

And you know, I go.

You know, they

You know, you're

Greg (06:24)

You're emoting, you're reacting to people in the world and it's just, that's how you experience yourself. know, so is it inward or outward? It's kind of, kind of simple when you put it that way. But one of the keys that I learned and this is in is that these tendencies are hardwired. So it was very pointless for me to try to change them. Like these, these are, these are things that are just, you got to, you got to accept.

Wayne (06:35)

in that book.

And so.

You know.

Greg (06:51)

look at how you are and accept that. what's another super important point in the book is that this is different from shyness. So shyness is fear. Everybody experiences fear. Everybody experiences.

Wayne (07:05)

You know, you

Greg (07:07)

Many, you some people don't experience social anxiety, which is, you know, kind of a fear, but we all experience fear of one kind or another. And fear is something that no matter who you are, it can be overcome. There are all kinds of techniques, progressive exposure, you you try something, you gradually get used to it. There's all kinds of great ways to overcome fear. So you can overcome your fear of public speaking if you're an introvert or an extrovert. You can overcome shyness in parties.

Wayne (07:23)

you

Greg (07:35)

Things like that, networking events, all these things that we think of, okay, those are introverted activities, these are extroverted activities. It's not the case. Some people are gonna have shyness and that can be overcome. It has nothing to do whether, if you're an introvert or not.

Bernie (07:51)

So what's the definition of an introvert and what's the definition of an extrovert? you're knowing that there's a gradient level, right? So there's different shades of it, but what's the absolute introvert and what's the absolute extrovert to find us? ⁓

Greg (08:06)

Yeah, mean, it's, I go back to, so the first person who started talking about this, who kind of, the concept was Carl Jung, and he spoke of it as the direction of energy. So is that energy directed inward or outward? And so that's kind of where I get to, you going inward first thinking, are you going outward first acting kind of mode? There's another,

Wayne (08:07)

Then you, I mean.

invented.

world.

Greg (08:32)

kind of common definition and people talk about it, you know, on the internet, they talk about where do you get your energy from? And so it's kind of describing, I think of that less of as, as a definition kind of it is describing a general tendency. I do find it energizing to, to be alone, alone. I have my most creative idea to have a meditation practice. I like to spend that time, but I also love to.

Wayne (08:38)

you know

It's

You know.

and you know I

Greg (09:00)

to be in groups and have one-on-one conversations and group conversations and group brainstorms. that's not a hard and fast rule. It depends on the group. Certain groups, me and introverts are gonna thrive in, basically if you're comfortable. If you drop us in a room, room full of people we know, that's not as comfortable. So that's gonna be draining.

Wayne (09:16)

in a now you don't know.

meaning.

⁓

Greg (09:27)

The

other reason why introverts get kind of, and so, then contrast that with extroverts, the extrovert goes to the party.

Wayne (09:35)

And then they... ⁓

Greg (09:37)

get

more and more excited, more and more energized, and then it goes two hours, four hours, they go to the after party and the bar afterward. That's obviously a very energizing situation for many extroverts. So what's going on? What's going on with the introvert brain, and now that starts to get into the chemistry of the brain. introvert brains tend to be like a lot of the activities in the forebrain, the frontal lobes, thinking, processing.

Wayne (09:44)

that you know that

Greg (10:03)

That's energy intensive stuff. And so what happens is these activities that are good for solving problems or coming up with stories or thinking about the world, we're spending all that on a party, processing all the music and all the conversations around them and the lights and all this stuff. so introvert brains are burning really, really hot trying to think of conversations and thinking deeply about every little thing people are saying. people are just kind of

Wayne (10:09)

you

Greg (10:30)

running on. So that's why we burn out quickly. I have like an hour and a half at a party. I'm like, I'm pretty tired at that point. It just depends.

Wayne (10:38)

think.

Greg (10:42)

that

experience is really common. know, extrovert brains, there's a lot more activity.

Wayne (10:44)

But in the

in things having to do with.

Greg (10:50)

interacting with other people, understanding other people's emotions, the reward reward centers of the brain. So these activated in these social situations. generally speaking, at a base level, introvert brains are kind of at a high level of activity, high level of arousal, just steady state. That's why we can sit in a quiet room. Yeah, this is pretty cool.

Wayne (10:56)

and get app.

So it's,

be like,

but then, know, and extroverts, you know, they're

Greg (11:19)

Their base level is a little bit lower and so to feel good, feel comfortable, they're going to seek more stimulation. They're going to want to talk to people. They're going to consume more media and the quiet room is a little more oppressive for them.

Bernie (11:35)

Is that like a tension deficit with that kind of border in that spectrum if you're an extreme extrovert? Is it kind of fit in that mold or is it just another layer of complexity?

Greg (11:49)

It's a good question. do see overlap sometimes there, but I haven't read anything specifically about that.

Bernie (11:55)

⁓ Bernie asked me, allows me one off the wall question, a podcast, and this is the one, a lot of people, I, they talk about their journey of business and whatever. I'm actually interested in seven or when you were seven or eight, ⁓ you made a decision that what you were told wasn't necessarily your life deal with it. And, ⁓ you know, have you ever thought about becoming an accountant?

When did what made you just say, no, I can do this. I have desires. want to be like, go back before corporate before you knew this in your cells. want to hear about that story.

Yeah.

Greg (12:36)

Yeah, well, I'm trying to think of a point in time. Something in me always knew that the way the world operated, I felt like there was another way.

Wayne (12:40)

No.

You know,

Greg (12:46)

There's,

mean, I think it goes back to seeing Wall Street and like, have to be mean, you gotta be a bastard to dominate and all this stuff. And there, I think there's just always been something intuitive in me that says, no, you can be strong, you can guide people, can be a force in the world and you don't have to be mean. And so I'm kind of all about trying to prove that.

Wayne (12:49)

movies and media and

When and you

And me.

Greg (13:14)

And I look for people in the world who are doing that too. There's examples around me. People I know, people I meet in industry. Actually, maybe this idea comes from my grandfather who is, my mom talked about him. He was in and they said, you can still be a good businessman, this guy. so like, rooting on all the nice men and women,

Wayne (13:18)

and people need and need.

be a nice

and

you know

Greg (13:41)

all

the people out there who are being kind. And I do think it's possible to do all the things, be successful with kindness.

Bernie (13:50)

You heard it, Bernie, he called me mean. I heard he just called you average is what you're saying, Wayne. I actually have a really neat question for our listeners that podcasting is a relatively new industry. I would say most people would say it's roughly 10 years old. How did you go from I'm doing this and I've written about this and I want to talk about this to others want to hear about this? Tell me that.

Wayne (13:53)

Bernie (14:19)

I grabbed the mic and posted it story.

Wayne (14:24)

Well, it.

Greg (14:24)

Really

started, I mean, it probably started in a meditation session where I got this idea for the name. And actually the name for my podcast, the powerful introvert podcast comes from a colleague of mine where I heard her describe. There was somebody we were, we were working together. He was reporting to her. He was quieter and. And she said, well, I told him you, should look in.

Wayne (14:31)

The name.

And I.

gradual and.

you know.

Greg (14:53)

try to emulate a powerful introvert like Greg. And I was like, ooh, I like that.

Wayne (14:58)

But then that came back to me in that moment.

Greg (15:01)

And I had been thinking about purpose. What do I want to give back? What is something that I can do that is meaningful? And it's not that my family and my workplace are not meaningful, but if I wanted to make a bigger contribution, what would it be? And I thought about my younger self. What would I have wanted to hear? What kind of encouragement,

Wayne (15:04)

You

Greg (15:29)

could have been there for me. And so there was something in me that wanted to reach out to younger aspiring leaders who are maybe considering that on the quieter side. And then what should they hear? Because there's a lot more information now than there was. Starting in 2012, there's just scores of podcasts, books. And I do credit Susan Cain for kind of spawning this, the quiet revolution.

Wayne (15:39)

You

Greg (15:55)

I call it that and you can even look on Google trends. And I wrote an article about this, cause I saw this. You know, there's sort of a lower level of interest in search and introversion and extroversion. Now starting the 2000s when they started tracking this. Now it really ramped up starting in 2012. that's when these books and there are multiple.

Wayne (16:09)

You

And ⁓

Greg (16:21)

websites, blogs, kinds of things coming on, some podcasts, you know, starting out even back then. These are people I've, some of them I've interviewed on my podcast, but it wasn't until 2020 around maybe April, April or May of 2020 where interest in the terms introversion and extroversion absolutely exploded. you're talking about

Wayne (16:45)

So you know what I'm talking about,

you know, the.

Greg (16:47)

pandemic

forced a bunch of people to consider, am I an introvert or am I an extrovert? Or more importantly, I'm absolutely miserable. What the hell is going on?

Wayne (16:53)

And you know, more.

Greg (16:59)

I'm an extrovert.

Versus in my case, I was like, amazing. I get to work at home. I get to go out and walk my dog. You I can step out of a meeting.

Wayne (17:02)

This is a

and immediately into,

you know, just, you know.

Greg (17:13)

to relax or something like this. People found out, a lot of people found out during that time period about if they're an introvert or an extrovert.

Bernie (17:22)

So in this particular space, you're, I guess, kind of, you're the philosopher king or a stoic, would you define them as introverts? And if that's the case, you know, if someone is not sure how to express themselves, because the introversion is like, do I say something? How do I say something? How do get them past that part? So if they're the philosopher king, how do get them to open up and say, hi, give us your shares, your wisdom?

Greg (17:50)

Yeah, so I think that a lot of people are more in the camp where they have these thoughts, they're aware that they have or things that they wanna contribute, but they're not sure how to go about it. There's some fears. And so I'm putting myself in my own place and people that I mentor.

Wayne (18:02)

they have wisdom.

and

Greg (18:17)

There can be a lot of fears and hesitancy to speak up. And these might be meetings, it might be in a group, but my advice is to start small. So start in the most comfortable setting. Sometimes someone might be fearful of speaking up in a small group. So find opportunities to speak one-on-one with something. A lot of introverts have

Wayne (18:27)

You usually

Greg (18:43)

a lot of skill in writing. So use your writing skill to share your thoughts and ideas, share emails, write things down in documents, share things out. If you're not comfortable speaking up in the meeting, circulate something around before you get into the meeting and then someone, maybe someone else will bring it up. Get an ally, somebody who will bring up your topic or say, ⁓ hey, Wayne, you had this great idea the other day.

Wayne (19:09)

you know.

tonight.

Greg (19:12)

Do you wanna share a little bit about it? So that's where someone can get just the basic level of comfort. And then as people progress, these things are fears again. So with exposure, you gain comfort, you start to build some confidence. And so then you get a more challenging situation. Leading a may sound daunting, but it's actually a fantastic opportunity for an introvert because

Wayne (19:30)

youth.

Greg (19:41)

You're assigned the role. Everyone expects you to kick off the meeting and start to guide the conversation and move things along. And so you got a job, you got to do it. And so there's no question about it. You're not going to hold back because you got to do it. So that's another way to develop the skills. And so then it's just looking for opportunities more and more, a little bit bigger, a little bit bigger audience, maybe a more senior audience, maybe with people you

Wayne (19:46)

you know.

Greg (20:12)

you don't know next time, and you just build up and up and up, and very soon you have comfort in all of these situations that seemed almost impossible in the past.

Bernie (20:22)

One thing that I've been told that I really like is that introverts are not always worse at networking, they just do it differently. And I've talked to extroverts that like working with the introverts because they take better notes. Tell me about planning for it to be heard and how you wire it differently than somebody who's just in a circus.

Greg (20:45)

Yeah, yeah. And I you captured it in the word planning. As one bit of advice for extroverts, any situation

Wayne (20:46)

you I think

A number one. ⁓

that

Greg (20:59)

you're not sure how it's gonna go, can benefit from planning. Come up with three or five bullet points of topics you wanna cover. It's in a meeting. If you're going into a networking event, who it is in advance that you wanna talk to, what questions do you wanna ask them, what might be some things that you could start out with so you're not just sitting on the sideline. Thinking the moment, because what happens to

Wayne (21:12)

you know, figuring out.

and just think.

Greg (21:27)

introvert brains is because you're thinking first, you're not naturally flowing into the situation. So it's very helpful to do some of that thinking in advance. And so to this day, I'm sure I do a lot more preparation than a lot of my peers coming into a meeting, figuring out the topics. And then if you've thought them through, then it does come out more naturally and you're prepared to speak to the points, things like that.

Wayne (21:37)

and you know

Greg (21:56)

So yeah, preparation number one.

Bernie (21:59)

How do you, with extroverts, blurting things out is really easy. Like, know, boom, there it is. And for an introvert, how do you handle getting a word in edgewise or even not standing the ground as in your contesting wills?

But if you're in a debate, how do you come back across? What are the techniques that you can come in so there's good etiquette and you're not hurting anybody's feelings?

Greg (22:25)

Yeah, that's, it's a, you're talking about a real challenge for extrovert. mean, introverts, including myself, you know, that's, this is something I've personally had to work on a lot. You know, preparation helps, but so let's say you're, going into a situation and I need to explain something to you. I'm going to say, okay, listen, Bernie, I have something really important. want to talk to you about, I might need two or three minutes to help me.

Wayne (22:31)

and

You

Greg (22:54)

Bear with me. It may take me a minute to get through it, but it's

really important. I promise it's gonna be good. So you're setting the stage and preparing people. So that's number one thing. Now I've worked with people who don't, like it's not physically in them to give you two minutes without blurting, jumping. ⁓ so you gotta hold your ground a little bit. Wait, wait, wait, Bernie, hey, let me speak.

Wayne (23:06)

and then you can do.

and again and it's like

Greg (23:23)

You know, I promise you this is good, wait. We'll come back to that.

Wayne (23:28)

And then

Greg (23:29)

And then sometimes, like if it keeps happening, you have to kind of turn up the volume a little bit. You gotta raise your voice and just like, hey, hey, look, I told you, Bernie, like, please stop interrupting me. Like, I'm going to get through this. We'll get back to your. So it's, you kind of have to match the energy. And what I found is like a lot of introverts are quiet. know, like there's, back to the book, quiet. You know, we're naturally quiet. We're not.

Wayne (23:43)

point, you

you know, go back.

you you ⁓

Greg (23:58)

The

boisterous ⁓ interaction is not the default. And there are a lot of people in the world where that's just how they live. Maybe come from big loud family, but he's like bantering and going back and forth. And so if that's the room that you're walking into and you're an introvert.

Wayne (24:00)

of, know, they're these and you every.

⁓ then

Greg (24:17)

you might have to match that energy. So you've got to say, like, if I'm going to be hurt in this situation, like, you know, this isn't ideal, this isn't the best for me, but it's really important for me to get my point across. So I'm going to have to summon more energy and match it in the situation. And this is where, you know, this is acting extroverted. It's the reality. I have to match that situation. I know what I'm doing. I'm doing this consciously and I know I can do it.

Wayne (24:36)

Well...

Greg (24:46)

I've got the resources to do it. those are gonna be some of the more uncomfortable situations you're gonna encounter as an introvert, but that's really the technique. it's prepare the people, hold the floor. Sometimes you've seen presidential debates. I'm speaking, I'm speaking. It gets that ridiculous. And then some other times,

Wayne (24:48)

This is.

Yeah, I think you're.

You know like

Greg (25:15)

Yeah. And then I guess that that last part is sometimes you got to take the gloves off.

Wayne (25:16)

Yeah

Bernie (25:19)

So you obviously watch media like the rest of us, but in your background and training, have you seen people who are naturally introverts that were famous that we wouldn't have known as introverts?

Greg (25:32)

Oh yeah, absolutely. mean, so there, I mean, you just go to Hollywood, you can kind of rattle off actors who would be surprising. So Harrison Ford is a common example as like introverts. Some of the creators, Steven Spielberg, Barbara Streisand, there's just a variety of people who are just really good at faking it.

Wayne (25:38)

and

You know.

⁓

Bernie (26:02)

So do you have advice for then for folks that are and I get the introversion, do I speak up to this taking a lot of energy for me? And, you know, if I spin the energy up, I'm going to have to have a either a sugar blast or a carb blast, or I'm going to need like 30 minutes of downtime. Maybe even in that, if it was a really good session. Is there is there a

a way for them to manage that and then get going. How do you help them through that piece? know, so they just get her done.

Greg (26:39)

Absolutely. And you're bringing out kind of the second core essential skill for introverts is energy management. And so that's another big challenge. So preparation, big thing, help you through the situations, but you got to manage your energy through the day. And so especially if there's an event that you know, or some interaction you know is going to require a lot of energy, it's ideal if you can leave some time before that.

Wayne (26:49)

and

meeting or,

And you you take, you know.

Greg (27:10)

a short walk,

go pet the dog or something. You kind of give yourself a little chance to recharge before going into it or you have the option. If there are three high energy things you need to do through the day, spread them out. So you have time afterward to recharge to your point. Or if you have the ability, don't do them all in the same day, spread them out over time. So

Wayne (27:14)

Anyway, so you.

You know, if they're, ⁓ you know,

⁓

Greg (27:38)

you're not going into the red zone. So this is a real challenge for people, a lot of people, especially people in business where we have meetings back to back to back to back. There is not time in between them. and especially if it's a bad meeting.

Wayne (27:49)

and

you know, it's like, hard meeting, then.

Greg (27:57)

I had somebody on there who's, he's a meeting scientist. had a meeting scientist on my podcast. He studies at Joseph, the University of Utah. And they found that it takes people on average 17 minutes to recover from a bad, of just five minutes to recover from a good meeting. So a lot of us are running in a deficit and that was not,

Wayne (28:03)

the A. Allen. He studies at the University

meeting and

things went well.

Greg (28:25)

specific to introverts or extroverts by the way, this is everybody. We're all kind of running in the red zone and we work without giving ourselves breaks. So I do say, so I think this is important. It's especially important for introverts, but in some ways, introverts are like a canary in the coal mine. What's good for introverts is really good for everybody because like in managing your energy, that's true.

Wayne (28:30)

to zone.

and

Greg (28:53)

Making sure that everyone speaks is true. So another really important point with introverts, if you're a leader of any kind, any kind of leader, you want the best ideas out of your people. You want your ideas from everyone. So you wanna, you really wanna hear from everyone or you're really hurting yourself. So you wanna structure your meetings consciously. okay, well, I'm not worried about the extroverts. They'll sit there and think on the fly and come up with their best ideas right there.

Wayne (29:21)

moment you know.

Greg (29:23)

bouncing

off there in a moment, the introverts are not gonna come up with their best ideas. So what do you wanna do? Give them an assignment in advance, give them some time to think and work on their ideas and bring their ideas where they've thought of them when they're at their best and they bring them into the discussion. And then you sort of have a even playing field and you have the best ideas from everyone. Actually, you get better ideas from extroverts too if they do their work in advance.

Wayne (29:30)

But you wanna

Greg (29:53)

There's more meeting science. I'm filled with meeting science today.

Bernie (29:57)

Extroverts could actually plan? I don't believe, I'll have to check. Greg, I do have a question for you. It's not for a whole audience, but it's for a chunk of them. Some introverts are incredibly talented, incredibly gifted and incredibly hardworking, they're told they're invisible. How do you go against that where you're not just hearing the loudest guy in the room to get that new job?

Greg (30:21)

Well, it really starts with leadership. Leaders need to know what I just said really is that I want to be successful. I want to make my company, myself, everyone around me as successful as possible. I need the contributions from everybody. And so they have to recognize that. So, and this isn't easy by the way. like I'm sitting, I've sat in this leadership.

Wayne (30:36)

we do that?

in the room.

And

Greg (30:50)

roll for a while now. I found that I'm the loudest person in the room.

Wayne (30:51)

and

in a number of rooms.

Greg (30:57)

You know, I work in product, I work in software, I work with engineering teams. I will have a call where there's 30 people, I'm the only one talking. And I was like, well, what does everyone think? There's radio silence. So I have to be careful, I have to watch it. And I have some awareness of that. I am empathetic with leaders. It's fun to talk, it's fun to...

Wayne (31:02)

And

I mean, and this.

You know, you,

Greg (31:25)

share your ideas, but you have to give people space to talk. sometimes if they don't talk in that moment, you've got to say, you got to follow up with them, or you got to email or Slack, or sit with people one-on-one. What'd you really think?

Wayne (31:41)

You know? ⁓

Bernie (31:42)

Do generations treat this process differently? Are the baby boners and the gen Xs different about this scale?

Greg (31:51)

So I heard some interesting stats about this. going back to the history, let's talk about America. 1880s, just the 1800s and before, pre-industrial, people are living in, they're on farms, they're in small towns, and the quiet upstanding citizen. So this was the American ideal. So that's actually an introvert Ford culture. compared to Asian cultures are very,

Wayne (31:57)

you know, or

⁓

Greg (32:17)

introvert.

Wayne (32:18)

You know, there isn't.

Greg (32:19)

There's not this idea that the extrovert is the leader, is the model citizen. So that really came about during the industrial era where people start moving into the cities. There aren't these small tight-knit communities. And so for people to be successful and stand out, they start taking on the salesman persona, the Dale Carnegie, win friends and influence people. And so by the 1950s, this is trying

Wayne (32:39)

Dude.

and joined

in on.

Greg (32:50)

our

psychological manuals like, you know, antisocial personal personality disorder. And people get really worried about the shy kid. Is he going to be okay? Is he going to be successful? And it's really almost pathologized. It's kind of a exaggeration. But that's it. That's really with us. I was raised like this, you know, we're raised in these gigantic public school classrooms, which are loud and chaotic and really not ideal for introverted kids. So we fast forward to

Wayne (33:15)

you

Greg (33:19)

My kids, Gen Z.

Wayne (33:23)

and

Greg (33:23)

I heard some statistics where some of these kids are going into the college years and 70 % are reporting they're introverted. These are kids who are raised through lockdowns and completely social media and reduced exposure to social situations. So I don't know what the truth is. That's... ⁓

Wayne (33:27)

are you know they're

And you know.

I don't think that's

Greg (33:50)

dozens of scientific studies and polls like that, but it is an interesting thought.

Bernie (33:54)

Are introverts seen as more authentic than extroverts?

especially when they're networking.

Greg (34:00)

Possibly, but it's hard to say though, if you're not seeing enough of the introvert, like how can you tell if they're authentic?

Wayne (34:08)

I mean.

Greg (34:10)

That's one of the things I tell people. One of the bits of advice for introverts is you gotta show people who you are. You gotta let people in on what's going on in the inside, particularly as a leader. You've got to share your thinking. How'd you get there? You gotta bring people along and you gotta share parts of your personality. That is not natural. And so in some ways,

Wayne (34:31)

and

Greg (34:36)

And the extrovert who's just all on the surface, they're not hiding anything that can be very authentic. ⁓ maybe the introvert is only comfortable feeling authentic in smaller groups or in one-on-one situations. You're not getting as much of their authentic self in a situation where they're not comfortable.

Wayne (34:41)

And you know.

and you

Bernie (34:56)

Greg. Whether it's you have a podcast, you do you have a book yourself as well?

Greg (35:03)

I do not. I am pretty new to the subject area. I kicked off, I started writing my newsletter, fall of last year, started podcasting in January. So I've got, you know.

You have got 25 episodes published, 50 or so scheduled for the year. Taking some inspiration from you.

Wayne (35:19)

you

you too, know, Bernie, had kind of off the, know, the schedule that you do and, you know, network things like that. I'm

Greg (35:26)

Tip me off to other productions.

some of your promotion work that so I'm relatively developing

my ideas. So I don't have a book yet. I have a ebook that I wrote about helping people get promoted because I think that's a challenge for introverts. So there's some statistics that say on average introverts make $10,000 a year less than extroverts simply because they're, you know, self promotion is not

Wayne (35:57)

You know.

Greg (36:01)

coming natural to them and that in very senior leadership that there's only two to 4 % of people are introverts. there's some stats, even if it's, I find it hard to believe it's as dismal as all that.

Wayne (36:09)

⁓

but.

Greg (36:17)

because there are a lot of introverts in senior leadership, prominent examples like Warren Buffett, Bill Gates. But it's clearly very underrepresented. So that's why I want to be out there and trying to help people learn about this.

Wayne (36:20)

you know.

and

Bernie (36:33)

I'm wondering, you've got a podcast. I think that's an obvious first step. But do you do consulting for teams? How do you monetize this process? How have you monetized your learning? How does it work?

Greg (36:49)

I have not yet. So I can tell you people that I know, because I'm still working in industry. I'm a senior leader in a software company. So this is really kind of a side gig. I have my podcast business hours that I keep.

Wayne (36:58)

and

and early mornings and...

Greg (37:07)

nights and weekends.

But I have encountered a number of people who do coach introverts.

Wayne (37:15)

and for bees and...

Greg (37:17)

for field

actors, And so there's people doing really incredible work out there and maybe at some point I will join them.

Wayne (37:23)

So, you know, me.

Bernie (37:26)

Maybe you need to tie up with an extrovert so we can tell people how to get to you. they were going to get to you, how would they do that, my friend?

Wayne (37:32)

Yeah

Greg (37:37)

Well, the Powerful Introvert Podcast is very easy to find on Apple and Spotify and YouTube. I have my website, thepowerfulintrovertpodcast.com, and you just search for those things and you'll find it. Lots of good content already.

Wayne (37:44)

⁓

Greg (37:53)

I appreciate my extrovert friends helping to spread the word.

Bernie (38:00)

Excellent. So you got a podcast, have an upcoming focus, closing the income and leadership gap for introverts by cooking them with communication and confidence tools. This is good. And I want to say thank you to Greg, my co-host Wayne, and you the Knack 4 Business listeners. So Greg helps if you're feeling

a little bit docile and you realize, hey, I'm an introvert. Greg's there to help you because he can help you get past feeling overlooked in business and discover the confidence and communication skills to help you get further in your leadership and also keep you happy, keep you in a good state of mind.